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I guess it's irrational, but the fact that there are some good points nestled inside this post only makes me more irritated about the post as a whole. You see,

I guess it's irrational, but the fact that there are some good points nestled inside this post only makes me more irritated about the post as a whole. You see, it's easier to just shrug and say "meh" if the whole thing is crap. Te problem with the main premise is the same thing PHP apologists have been harping about all the time: some poor soul wants to create an online encyclopaedia, or some teacher needs an online teaching platform, or someone wants to write a blog. Those people do not want to learn to program, they want to solve problems. Newsflash: solving those kinds of problems is called programming. That's what programming is. You want to make the computer do something that it can't do with the existing programs, so you create a new program. If a programming language is easy to use by everyone, it's because it doesn't require you to think like a programmer. It's part of the language design. If you start fixing those design decisions, you'll most likely end up with a decent language that simply isn't easy to use by everyone anymore. This idea that you don't need to be a programmer to write programs has already failed on several occasions in history of programming: dBase, Visual Basic and Access are notable examples. Not repeating the history is too much to ask for, but let's at least try to avoid making it look like it's a good thing.

Ralith 14y ago
I'm at least as opinionated about programming languages as the next HNer, but surely it's a misrepresentation to call Visual Basic, Access, and, yes, even PHP "failed" in light of their widespread use in successful products and/or businesses.
Zak 14y ago
It's probably a mistake to think these technologies failed. You won't find many programmers who consider VB and Access tools of choice, but a lot of people have gotten a lot of use out of them in business. If it's possible to make a general-purpose programming tool that's reasonably accessible to non-programmers that programmers won't hate, I don't think anybody has come very close yet. DSLs may be the best we can do.
rprasad 14y ago
You do not need to be a writer to write, a driver to drive, a cook to cook, a runner to run, or a businessperson to conduct business...and you don't need to be a programmer to program.
- CodeMage 14y ago
  And yet you need to be a dentist to work on someone's teeth, a doctor to prescribe medical treatment or a pilot to fly a plane. Yes, you can program without being a programmer, just as you can drive a city car to your office and back, but you won't take that same city car to Monza and expect to beat Ferrari's Formula One team in a race. So let's dispense with the sophistry and admit that you need to learn a specific skill set to do a skilled job and that you need adequate tools for that job.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    A race car driver is a very different thing from a driver. There are also restrictions placed on who can be a race car driver. It sounds like what you are really saying is that programmers need to be certified by a professional trade organization, following a period of 2-6 years of education and apprenticeship, enforced by law. After all, that is what separates doctors, dentists, lawyers, and accountants from other professions. (Race car drivers have contracts and other measures to enforce exclusivity, as racing is generally illegal except on dedicated courses or in licensed races.) Programming is a skill/trade. It is not a profession. That is a good thing. If programming were a profession, it would not be open to everyone to learn and do.
vparat 14y ago
"PHP apologists" -You've got to be fucking kidding

Ralith 14y ago

I'm at least as opinionated about programming languages as the next HNer, but surely it's a misrepresentation to call Visual Basic, Access, and, yes, even PHP "failed" in light of their widespread use in successful products and/or businesses.

Zak 14y ago

It's probably a mistake to think these technologies failed. You won't find many programmers who consider VB and Access tools of choice, but a lot of people have gotten a lot of use out of them in business. If it's possible to make a general-purpose programming tool that's reasonably accessible to non-programmers that programmers won't hate, I don't think anybody has come very close yet. DSLs may be the best we can do.

rprasad 14y ago

You do not need to be a writer to write, a driver to drive, a cook to cook, a runner to run, or a businessperson to conduct business...and you don't need to be a programmer to program.

CodeMage 14y ago
And yet you need to be a dentist to work on someone's teeth, a doctor to prescribe medical treatment or a pilot to fly a plane. Yes, you can program without being a programmer, just as you can drive a city car to your office and back, but you won't take that same city car to Monza and expect to beat Ferrari's Formula One team in a race. So let's dispense with the sophistry and admit that you need to learn a specific skill set to do a skilled job and that you need adequate tools for that job.
- rprasad 14y ago
  A race car driver is a very different thing from a driver. There are also restrictions placed on who can be a race car driver. It sounds like what you are really saying is that programmers need to be certified by a professional trade organization, following a period of 2-6 years of education and apprenticeship, enforced by law. After all, that is what separates doctors, dentists, lawyers, and accountants from other professions. (Race car drivers have contracts and other measures to enforce exclusivity, as racing is generally illegal except on dedicated courses or in licensed races.) Programming is a skill/trade. It is not a profession. That is a good thing. If programming were a profession, it would not be open to everyone to learn and do.

vparat 14y ago

"PHP apologists" -You've got to be fucking kidding