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I’m curious about this history of this. What page are people on that might lead to domestic abuse? What do they use frequently enough that they would learn abo

I’m curious about this history of this. What page are people on that might lead to domestic abuse? What do they use frequently enough that they would learn about this exit functionality rather than just clicking a bookmark bar, closing the tab, or just switching the tab? This seems like such a contrived scenario with a solution that only works for gov uk sites. Why not teach users how to switch or close tabs with keyboard shortcuts?

elevatedastalt 2y ago
Many possibilities. Something seeking legal help, or an info page about domestic abuse itself, or something around financial literacy.
froggerexpert 2y ago
> This seems like such a contrived scenario with a solution that only works for gov uk sites. Why not teach users how to switch or close tabs with keyboard shortcuts? +1. "Close tab" is more robust, well-supported and well-known. It seems more likely a user will load an inoccuous page as a decoy, than learn triple-shift is a quick exit. Still, interesting read, to hear the reasoning. Would like to see empirical evidence/user testing.
- TheRealPomax 2y ago
  <partner walks in> <they see a tab getting closed> <they muscle their way in and restore it> <someone gets a black eye> vs <partner walks in> <nothing really special about a tab loading the weather> <you still live in fear but you're not getting physically abused>
  - froggerexpert 2y ago
    I understand the happy case. When it works, great. My critiques were on the sad cases: * Presses <Ctrl><Ctrl><Ctrl>. Wait why isnt this working? Too late. * Presses <Shift><Shift><Shift> on another sensitive site that doesn't implement this. Too late. * Presses <Shift><Shift><Shift> on a poorly supported browser, or after the functionality is removed, or after it conflicts with OS-level (it might not today, but who knows about future OS updates)
    - PaulRobinson 2y ago
      We should probably bake it into browser standards then.
      - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
        Absolutely. This would solve the above problems, plus any problems involving JavaScript bugs that would render the whole thing inactive. Just a shortcut to go to the root of the site seems appropriate. Or maybe sites could configure themselves for a "safe site" equivalent if their whole content is a risk.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    The timing of those two scenarios is different. Either the abuser walked in while the person was still on the page with the big red button or not. It is not faster to press the big red button or shift 3 times than it is to close a tab.
    - logifail 2y ago
      > It is not faster to press the big red button Indeed. Surely Ctrl+W (with a 2nd decoy tab already there and at BBC Weather) is 10x faster than finding and clicking a button on the page you're reading? EDIT: another issue with the Exit This Page as implemented on eg https://www.camden.gov.uk/planning-to-leave-an-abuser https://www.camden.gov.uk/planning-to-leave-an-abuser - if you open it in a private browsing session, and click it, it sends you to Google, but of course there the first thing you get is the massive cookies pop-up. So wouldn't that be a bit of a red flag to whoever just walked in? :/
  - eviks 2y ago
    Partner walks in They see a page changing Black eye
    - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
      Or, perhaps even more likely, abuser stealthily enters the room and silently observes the victim to try to extract more damning information before admonishing (or rather, attacking) them.
- scott_w 2y ago
  If it’s the only tab open, you’ll raise suspicion if your partner walks in to you staring at the desktop
  - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
    It wouldn't be the desktop, would it? Wouldn't it be an 'empty' browser window? Still just as suspicious, of course, but I wonder if some/all browsers do something special in that case—e.g. default to the home page. They certainly could, as could a plugin.
    - scott_w 2y ago
      Chrome closes the window on the last tab. It's splitting hairs, however. As you said, it's still raises suspicion which, to a person in a domestic violence situation, is not what they want.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    I think the point is learning to have two tabs open, one incognito, will work everywhere for all resources, whereas this bespoke interaction needs to be memorised just for this websites.
    - scott_w 2y ago
      I wouldn’t presume to lecture women whose husbands beat them on how they should behave…
      - froggerexpert 2y ago
        I understand this is a sensitive topic, but I don't think it's fair to characterize robertlagrant's comment in the way you did. Their comment looks similar to any other comment on technical/UX matters, including yours and mine.
        scott_w 2y ago
rjknight 2y ago
I would really like to know whether this feature gets any (non-accidental) use. It's certainly an important problem to solve, and I can see the technical merit in the solution proposed. What I'm left wondering is how this solution is most effectively communicated to the people who need to know about it, such that they're able to make use of it correctly in the critical moments when they need to use it. For obvious reasons there are probably no good statistics on this, but I wonder what the user research was like.
easton 2y ago
Another example: There’s a page in the iOS settings where you can remove people from your family group and change your password (or do other things you might do if someone was after you). It has a “quick exit” button that kicks you back to the Home Screen, but also completely kills the Settings app so said person wouldn’t know you were on that page if they yoinked your phone. https://support.apple.com/guide/personal-safety/how-safety-check-works-ips2aad835e1/web https://support.apple.com/guide/personal-safety/how-safety-c...
zerovox 2y ago
There's some examples (and a pretty sad graph on _when_ users are looking at these resources) on the user research summary: https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/2908 https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/...
- rzmmm 2y ago
  If I'm looking at this right it's around 413 uses in a month in this particular web page. I don't know if they somehow distinguish actual use versus "trying it out". I think it's great these things are considered but I'm a bit skeptical they actually increase physical safety of people at risk. Maybe these buttons increase perceived safety, which is a good thing?
kelnos 2y ago
> What page are people on that might lead to domestic abuse? I assume there's a .gov.uk page somewhere that lists resources for people who are in abusive relationships. I imagine if an abusive partner walked in to find you reading that, that might set them off.
- kortilla 2y ago
  Sure, but are they going to spend a bunch of time to learn how to use the magic exit button or just press ctrl-w to close the tab?
  - scott_w 2y ago
    If it’s the only tab you have open, it’ll look very suspicious that you’re just staring at the desktop…
  - youainti 2y ago
    I am highly technical (multiple linux machines at home) and I don't use ctrl-w. I didn't know it was a thing.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      I do, but only because it's a stupid-ass shortcut I keep triggering on accident.
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        I don't really mind triggering ctrl-W by accident because ctrl-shift-T will undo the mistake. An accidental ctrl-Q is much worse, because closed incognito windows can't be recovered.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        I think all the major browsers can be configured to prompt before quitting.
scott_w 2y ago
If it’s the only tab open, switching isn’t an option. Women living under the threat of violence will be very stressed, so won’t be well placed to setup their browser ahead of time.
jdietrich 2y ago
The MVP for this component was on the form to start an application for a restraining order. The design team fully explain their rationale and research on the project Github. https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/2923 https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/...
frereubu 2y ago
That information is out there, but people in these kinds of circumstances don't always have unrestricted internet time to research it. They might just be able to snatch a few minutes here and here and therefore not know much about how to use browsers etc. This is particularly the case for an honour-based abuse service (forced marriage, honour killings etc) that we work with for example.
rsynnott 2y ago
> What page are people on that might lead to domestic abuse? The police, the divorce services, health services pages about contraception, abortion, sexual assault, LGBT youth services, etc etc etc. Think people who are already being abused, mostly.
londons_explore 2y ago
> This seems like such a contrived scenario Agreed. I suspect the number of people assisted by this button is vanishingly small, and outweighed by the number of people who don't get the information they're looking for because they accidentally click the button and can't find their way back. Or the number of people harmed because the "exit this page" UI is on some pages only (for example, it isn't here on HN), and that is even more confusing for users who aren't tech savvy enough to realise its part of the site not the browser and who could come to rely on it. Overall, I think this button is poor UX and shouldn't be used, even on pages with sensitive content that it is intended for.

elevatedastalt 2y ago

Many possibilities. Something seeking legal help, or an info page about domestic abuse itself, or something around financial literacy.

froggerexpert 2y ago

> This seems like such a contrived scenario with a solution that only works for gov uk sites. Why not teach users how to switch or close tabs with keyboard shortcuts? +1. "Close tab" is more robust, well-supported and well-known. It seems more likely a user will load an inoccuous page as a decoy, than learn triple-shift is a quick exit. Still, interesting read, to hear the reasoning. Would like to see empirical evidence/user testing.

TheRealPomax 2y ago
<partner walks in> <they see a tab getting closed> <they muscle their way in and restore it> <someone gets a black eye> vs <partner walks in> <nothing really special about a tab loading the weather> <you still live in fear but you're not getting physically abused>
- froggerexpert 2y ago
  I understand the happy case. When it works, great. My critiques were on the sad cases: * Presses <Ctrl><Ctrl><Ctrl>. Wait why isnt this working? Too late. * Presses <Shift><Shift><Shift> on another sensitive site that doesn't implement this. Too late. * Presses <Shift><Shift><Shift> on a poorly supported browser, or after the functionality is removed, or after it conflicts with OS-level (it might not today, but who knows about future OS updates)
  - PaulRobinson 2y ago
    We should probably bake it into browser standards then.
    - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
      Absolutely. This would solve the above problems, plus any problems involving JavaScript bugs that would render the whole thing inactive. Just a shortcut to go to the root of the site seems appropriate. Or maybe sites could configure themselves for a "safe site" equivalent if their whole content is a risk.
- kortilla 2y ago
  The timing of those two scenarios is different. Either the abuser walked in while the person was still on the page with the big red button or not. It is not faster to press the big red button or shift 3 times than it is to close a tab.
  - logifail 2y ago
    > It is not faster to press the big red button Indeed. Surely Ctrl+W (with a 2nd decoy tab already there and at BBC Weather) is 10x faster than finding and clicking a button on the page you're reading? EDIT: another issue with the Exit This Page as implemented on eg https://www.camden.gov.uk/planning-to-leave-an-abuser https://www.camden.gov.uk/planning-to-leave-an-abuser - if you open it in a private browsing session, and click it, it sends you to Google, but of course there the first thing you get is the massive cookies pop-up. So wouldn't that be a bit of a red flag to whoever just walked in? :/
- eviks 2y ago
  Partner walks in They see a page changing Black eye
  - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
    Or, perhaps even more likely, abuser stealthily enters the room and silently observes the victim to try to extract more damning information before admonishing (or rather, attacking) them.
scott_w 2y ago
If it’s the only tab open, you’ll raise suspicion if your partner walks in to you staring at the desktop
- oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
  It wouldn't be the desktop, would it? Wouldn't it be an 'empty' browser window? Still just as suspicious, of course, but I wonder if some/all browsers do something special in that case—e.g. default to the home page. They certainly could, as could a plugin.
  - scott_w 2y ago
    Chrome closes the window on the last tab. It's splitting hairs, however. As you said, it's still raises suspicion which, to a person in a domestic violence situation, is not what they want.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  I think the point is learning to have two tabs open, one incognito, will work everywhere for all resources, whereas this bespoke interaction needs to be memorised just for this websites.
  - scott_w 2y ago
    I wouldn’t presume to lecture women whose husbands beat them on how they should behave…
    - froggerexpert 2y ago
      I understand this is a sensitive topic, but I don't think it's fair to characterize robertlagrant's comment in the way you did. Their comment looks similar to any other comment on technical/UX matters, including yours and mine.
      - scott_w 2y ago

rjknight 2y ago

I would really like to know whether this feature gets any (non-accidental) use. It's certainly an important problem to solve, and I can see the technical merit in the solution proposed. What I'm left wondering is how this solution is most effectively communicated to the people who need to know about it, such that they're able to make use of it correctly in the critical moments when they need to use it. For obvious reasons there are probably no good statistics on this, but I wonder what the user research was like.

easton 2y ago

Another example: There’s a page in the iOS settings where you can remove people from your family group and change your password (or do other things you might do if someone was after you). It has a “quick exit” button that kicks you back to the Home Screen, but also completely kills the Settings app so said person wouldn’t know you were on that page if they yoinked your phone. https://support.apple.com/guide/personal-safety/how-safety-check-works-ips2aad835e1/web https://support.apple.com/guide/personal-safety/how-safety-c...

zerovox 2y ago

There's some examples (and a pretty sad graph on _when_ users are looking at these resources) on the user research summary: https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/2908 https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/...

rzmmm 2y ago
If I'm looking at this right it's around 413 uses in a month in this particular web page. I don't know if they somehow distinguish actual use versus "trying it out". I think it's great these things are considered but I'm a bit skeptical they actually increase physical safety of people at risk. Maybe these buttons increase perceived safety, which is a good thing?

kelnos 2y ago

> What page are people on that might lead to domestic abuse? I assume there's a .gov.uk page somewhere that lists resources for people who are in abusive relationships. I imagine if an abusive partner walked in to find you reading that, that might set them off.

kortilla 2y ago
Sure, but are they going to spend a bunch of time to learn how to use the magic exit button or just press ctrl-w to close the tab?
- scott_w 2y ago
  If it’s the only tab you have open, it’ll look very suspicious that you’re just staring at the desktop…
- youainti 2y ago
  I am highly technical (multiple linux machines at home) and I don't use ctrl-w. I didn't know it was a thing.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    I do, but only because it's a stupid-ass shortcut I keep triggering on accident.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      I don't really mind triggering ctrl-W by accident because ctrl-shift-T will undo the mistake. An accidental ctrl-Q is much worse, because closed incognito windows can't be recovered.
      - School-Cotton 2y ago
        I think all the major browsers can be configured to prompt before quitting.

scott_w 2y ago

If it’s the only tab open, switching isn’t an option. Women living under the threat of violence will be very stressed, so won’t be well placed to setup their browser ahead of time.

jdietrich 2y ago

The MVP for this component was on the form to start an application for a restraining order. The design team fully explain their rationale and research on the project Github. https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/2923 https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-design-system/discussions/...

frereubu 2y ago

That information is out there, but people in these kinds of circumstances don't always have unrestricted internet time to research it. They might just be able to snatch a few minutes here and here and therefore not know much about how to use browsers etc. This is particularly the case for an honour-based abuse service (forced marriage, honour killings etc) that we work with for example.

rsynnott 2y ago

> What page are people on that might lead to domestic abuse? The police, the divorce services, health services pages about contraception, abortion, sexual assault, LGBT youth services, etc etc etc. Think people who are already being abused, mostly.

londons_explore 2y ago

> This seems like such a contrived scenario Agreed. I suspect the number of people assisted by this button is vanishingly small, and outweighed by the number of people who don't get the information they're looking for because they accidentally click the button and can't find their way back. Or the number of people harmed because the "exit this page" UI is on some pages only (for example, it isn't here on HN), and that is even more confusing for users who aren't tech savvy enough to realise its part of the site not the browser and who could come to rely on it. Overall, I think this button is poor UX and shouldn't be used, even on pages with sensitive content that it is intended for.