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I hate hate hate hate this model, because it just splits off people who could be using, advocating for, and contributing to your product (by documentation, by b
by gergles 14y ago
I hate hate hate hate this model, because it just splits off people who could be using, advocating for, and contributing to your product (by documentation, by bug reports, by leaving positive reviews, ...) into two groups of people: those who are willing to pay for the program before they get to run it, and those who will just google "program name +free" and click on the first link.
It also eliminates significant amounts of feedback that would be sent to you as the developer and instead splits your mindshare among you and whoever compiled your program and has the best SEO. In the worst case scenario, somebody compiles your program with a suboptimal set of optimization flags, or with a bad library, or any number of things, and it makes your program look terrible. People start posting that "Foosoft makes terrible software" because they downloaded a version that is terrible, and you get all the blame for that - do you think they'll even remember that they downloaded their binary from free-foosoft-binaries.com.net.mx.biz.cc?
I also take umbrage to calling this a 'donation'. If you get something in exchange for it that people who don't donate can't get, it isn't a 'donation', it is a purchase. Call it a purchase. Say you're buying the binaries. It isn't a "contribution", a "donation", or "feel good warm fuzzies", it is a cold hard transaction of cash for something of value.
- kintamanimatt 14y agoHow hard is it to run ./configure && make && sudo make install (at least on a *nix-compatible OS)? Most of the time the defaults work fine. I have no idea how this would translate into the world of Windows though.
- kstenerud 14y agoFor 98% of the world's population? Very hard, approaching impossibly hard.
- kintamanimatt 14y agoIn that case I like this model, not because I want to feel like a special snowflake, but because it encourages and rewards leaning.
- kstenerud 14y agoWonderful! Remember those words when you encounter a program that "encourages" you to master quantum physics, tort law for interstate commerce, and accounting for mergers and acquisitions before you're allowed to use it.
- kintamanimatt 14y agoGetting some piece of FOSS to work on a VPS many years ago was how I got started learning GNU/Linux. I couldn't be more grateful for the pitfalls and minor struggle I had before I could get whatever it was working. The two also don't compare. Quantum physics is different and more complex than ./configure && make && sudo make install. Also, the user doesn't have to learn any of this and can just make a "donation" if they prefer.
- possibilistic 14y agoIt's easy to Google "how do I compile this?" or "how do I install X program?" and get results. It is not, however, easy to Google "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene?" Remember: the internet was built by computer users. We have some of the most detailed documentation and most accessible learning materials of any discipline. The same cannot be said of computational chemistry, quantum physics, systems metabolomics, ...
- zanny 14y agoThe top Google result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is this comment thread. Smashing!
- kintamanimatt 14y agoIronically, the top result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is now your comment saying this thread is now the top result! [1] [1] http://i.imgur.com/8EiBm.png http://i.imgur.com/8EiBm.png
- jason_slack 14y agoAgreed. Even with a comprehensive Read Me there will be issues that people wont be able to overcome due to lack of experience...mismatched library versions, compiler versions, OS, etc.
- kintamanimatt 14y agoWhy is it good to shelter people from learning experiences? Forums, documentation, Q&A sites, IRC, Google, etc are all excellent resources for n00bs. When I was a complete and utter beginner I relied on all the above methods for support when I encountered seemingly insurmountable problems, and as a consequence I learned a lot and quickly. This was one of the best things that ever happened to me.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- novalis 14y agoBecause of train wrecks like this (there are plenty of other examples around, let us no pretend there aren't): /home/rob/projects/gnu/gcc/configure -target=arm-linux-androideabi --host=i386-linux-gnu --build=i386-linux-gnu --with-gnu-as --with-gnu-ld --enable-languages=c,c++ --without-ppl --without-cloog --disable-libssp --enable-threads --disable-nls --disable-libmudflap --disable-libgomp --disable-shared --disable-tls --disable-libitm --with-float=soft --with-fpu=vfp --enable-target-optspace --enable-initfini-array --disable-nls --prefix=/usr/local/android-toolchain --with-sysroot=/usr/local/android-toolchain/sysroot --enable-gold --with-pkgversion=Rob Savoye --disable-libquadmath --disable-plugin --enable-gold=default target_configargs=lt_cv_shlibpath_overrides_runpath=yes --enable-cxx-flags='-fexceptions -frtt You say shelter, someone else says complete waste of time. I am actually for people building their own but if you don't recognize that some problems at some instances of dev are simply over complicated winding hacks that will not ever be used again... well. That just turns to the 'Holier than Thou' moments that look over pedantic to people that, while not lacking coding skills, will just be put off when contacting with this reality. And the n00bs, l33t talk, not so much.
- gergles 14y ago
- malkia 14y agoWe have top-notch programmers which have never heard of configure, and to them anything opensource that does not compile straight in Visual Studio is not worth it. You can't even get them to learn a little bit about make, but then again some of them glamorize XML as the best thing ever.
- mixmastamyk 14y ago"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." —Inigo Montoya
- kintamanimatt 14y agoI'm genuinely curious and I'm not being antagonistic, but why do you call them top-notch if they refuse to learn and shy away from a problem that should be (to them) relatively easy?
- splicer 14y agoMaybe he's talking about notches on the pay scale ;)
- joesb 14y agoBecause they are the best at what they do? Someone are just the best programmer in Windows/Visual Studio environment. And being "top-notch" should not be reserved to only those who use command line.
- drivebyacct2 14y agoI have an immensely hard time believing someone is the "best programmer in VS" without knowing how to use more advanced tools.
- npsimons 14y agoI think he was referring to the "top notch" developers being unwilling to learn, which to me would disqualify them from the category of "top notch", no matter what how good they are at using their preferred toolset. I'm curious, if they are so resistant to learning new things, how well do they deal with changes in MSVS? Like for instance going from 2008 to 2010, the solution file format changed (and the importer is far from perfect), and things were moved around in the GUI.
- simonbrown 14y ago> I have no idea how this would translate into the world of Windows though. Spend an hour downloading Visual C++ Express (assuming it works in express, otherwise buy the professional version). Try to fix any build errors (not an easy task if you're not a programmer). Install NSIS and any installer dependencies. Make sure the binary is in the right place. etc.
- adrianpike 14y agoDon't forget to install any dependencies before you configure, otherwise you might have a shiny new ImageMagick that doesn't support PNGs!
- eli 14y agoI think it could serve as a reminder to people who aren't really sysadmins that, hey, I don't know enough to fix this if it breaks so maybe I should pay for support for this product that I rely on.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- MaysonL 14y agoTo run those, if everything works, simple. If you are even slightly embedded in dependency hell, then nearly impossible, spending a reasonable amount of time.
- lunarscape 14y agoNot everything is that easy. An example would be NeoOffice for Mac. You have to "donate" to get the binaries or compile it yourself, except it requires 10.4 and XCode 2.5 [1]. [1] http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Build_Instructions http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Build_Instr...
- simonbrown 14y agoOr worse, they bundle it with malware/adware.
- cbsmith 14y agoThe vast majority of Linux binaries out there were built by someone other than the original author of the product (usually the distro). I haven't seen much evidence that this causes a split in the community. Usually to have a split someone has to futz with the source. I'm not sure it is really different on Windows or Mac either. I'm pretty sure most open source software binaries found in the wild were not built by the individual project's authors.
- mnutt 14y agoLimewire was this way to some degree. The source was free if you were willing to check it out from CVS, or you could download a binary from Limewire.com which strongly encouraged you to pay for "Pro". This produced tons of scam sites that at best just compiled the binary themselves then took people's money, and at worst just bundled malware. It also produced Frostwire, which I think was a net positive, but was really just a re-branding. Limewire's open source community never materialized, and they got the worst of both worlds.
- graue 14y agoWhat if you combine this model with how Mozilla handles trademarks? Firefox is 100% open source, but if you distribute your own binaries, you can't use the name "Firefox" or the logo. That arrangement would seem to address your concerns.
- gergles 14y agoThat would help some of them, although it still cuts you out of potentially great feedback from your users (if you care about that.) Instead, users will file their bugs/raise their concerns/send their suggestions to Icestoat instead of your product. You could, of course, watch that bugtracker (if they have one and if it is public), but it seems to me still to be counter to the ethos of releasing open-source software.
- dinkumthinkum 14y agoWell, I mean, it's great to feel passionate about your users and all of that. But surely, there some of us that want to actually male money (and not modest kind that allows one to live a very simple life Costa Rica).
- merlincorey 14y agoI also take umbrage to calling this a 'donation'. I take it you don't have a medical card?