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> tends Tends is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. The model of "Let's have the worst people do whatever they want, for the most selfish possible reasons, an

> tends Tends is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. The model of "Let's have the worst people do whatever they want, for the most selfish possible reasons, and hope for the best" has also produced a horrific amount of suffering. Crazy amounts of socialized externalized losses get hand-waved away.

dmitrygr 2y ago
And yet all the most prosperous countries in the world are the ones that allow individuals to seek unbounded profits, and all the darkest holes of history are in situations that attempt to tell people how to live
- mullingitover 2y ago
  Every single society has told people how to live since the Code of Hammurabi. The darkest times in history have happened when people with power dehumanized large groups of people, and that's not particular to any economic philosophy.
- Muromec 2y ago
  Why the most prosperous country in the world has homeless, opioid epidemic and is pretty consistent in having the same kind of problems? Can you really call it the most prosperous then?
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    Yes I can. Because none of the others would allow my family the standard of life we have here.
    - mullingitover 2y ago
      The US does a great job at hyping itself, but let's be realistic: it's 20th in human development index[1]. "Sure," you might say, "regular people don't do as well here, but you can get ahead here if you work hard! That's the American Dream™." Nope, it's also 27th in social mobility[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
      - nightski 2y ago
        I was part of a student exchange with Sweden. This is just an anecdotal experience but if that is what 4 on the mobility list looks like then they got something horribly wrong. I enjoyed many aspects of the country, but prosperous and highly mobile is not what I observed in any way.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- schmidtleonard 2y ago
  Waking up on the wrong side of a hundred monopoly rents enforced by the property rights of rich people doesn't feel like freedom to me. Yes, fully socialist countries seem to be doing even worse, but so many of the good parts of my employment contract came from the New Deal and its wild success shows in everything from the infrastructure to the demographic charts that are still defined by echoes of the baby boom! It's no wonder the businessmen got together and tried to coup FDR and have spent the last 50 years trying to wind back these policies. We don't need a Glorious Revolution but we do need another Roosevelt.
- dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
  > all the darkest holes of history are in situations that attempt to tell people how to live I sure hear a lot of faux-market fascists telling me how to live these days.
marcusverus 2y ago
> The model of "Let have the worst people do whatever they want, for the most selfish possible reasons, and hope for the best" has also produced a horrific amount of suffering. This is a profoundly unserious framing. Suffering is the default state of man, and our current system has done far more to eradicate said suffering than any other. The historical alternative system was voluntarily abandoned by all of its impoverished practitioners in favor of the current system. The current "alternative" to our system is just our system with high taxes. Just take the L.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > Suffering is the default state of man, and our current system has done far more to eradicate said suffering than any other. This seems like gaslighting. Of all the takes, "You were meant to suffer, so if I made you suffer and then I did stuff to reduce the suffering you should be grateful" is certainly one of them.
- FridgeSeal 2y ago
  > Suffering is the default state of man What an awful and depressing view to hold. I hope one day you find a small piece of happiness in your life. Things used to be worse, and our default state is “suffering” so we should give up, stop here and lick the boots of the current, obviously flawed system? That doesn’t even make sense as an argument.

dmitrygr 2y ago

And yet all the most prosperous countries in the world are the ones that allow individuals to seek unbounded profits, and all the darkest holes of history are in situations that attempt to tell people how to live

mullingitover 2y ago
Every single society has told people how to live since the Code of Hammurabi. The darkest times in history have happened when people with power dehumanized large groups of people, and that's not particular to any economic philosophy.
Muromec 2y ago
Why the most prosperous country in the world has homeless, opioid epidemic and is pretty consistent in having the same kind of problems? Can you really call it the most prosperous then?
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  Yes I can. Because none of the others would allow my family the standard of life we have here.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    The US does a great job at hyping itself, but let's be realistic: it's 20th in human development index[1]. "Sure," you might say, "regular people don't do as well here, but you can get ahead here if you work hard! That's the American Dream™." Nope, it's also 27th in social mobility[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
    - nightski 2y ago
      I was part of a student exchange with Sweden. This is just an anecdotal experience but if that is what 4 on the mobility list looks like then they got something horribly wrong. I enjoyed many aspects of the country, but prosperous and highly mobile is not what I observed in any way.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
schmidtleonard 2y ago
Waking up on the wrong side of a hundred monopoly rents enforced by the property rights of rich people doesn't feel like freedom to me. Yes, fully socialist countries seem to be doing even worse, but so many of the good parts of my employment contract came from the New Deal and its wild success shows in everything from the infrastructure to the demographic charts that are still defined by echoes of the baby boom! It's no wonder the businessmen got together and tried to coup FDR and have spent the last 50 years trying to wind back these policies. We don't need a Glorious Revolution but we do need another Roosevelt.
dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
> all the darkest holes of history are in situations that attempt to tell people how to live I sure hear a lot of faux-market fascists telling me how to live these days.

marcusverus 2y ago

> The model of "Let have the worst people do whatever they want, for the most selfish possible reasons, and hope for the best" has also produced a horrific amount of suffering. This is a profoundly unserious framing. Suffering is the default state of man, and our current system has done far more to eradicate said suffering than any other. The historical alternative system was voluntarily abandoned by all of its impoverished practitioners in favor of the current system. The current "alternative" to our system is just our system with high taxes. Just take the L.

mullingitover 2y ago
> Suffering is the default state of man, and our current system has done far more to eradicate said suffering than any other. This seems like gaslighting. Of all the takes, "You were meant to suffer, so if I made you suffer and then I did stuff to reduce the suffering you should be grateful" is certainly one of them.
FridgeSeal 2y ago
> Suffering is the default state of man What an awful and depressing view to hold. I hope one day you find a small piece of happiness in your life. Things used to be worse, and our default state is “suffering” so we should give up, stop here and lick the boots of the current, obviously flawed system? That doesn’t even make sense as an argument.