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I never really understood the 'punk' genre assignment for this band.
by SirFatty 2y ago
I never really understood the 'punk' genre assignment for this band.
- drcongo 2y agoThis is getting downvoted, but I'd never even heard them referred to as punk before. And as a British former punk, I don't understand it either.
- mmastrac 2y agoThey were punk, just mainstream, pop punk. It was a common label for them in North America in the 90s.
- mattw2121 2y agoAs a former North American Punk, they were posers, not punks.
- DowagerDave 2y agoSaying I'm punk, and you are not punk, is about the least punk thing you can do.
- bryanrasmussen 2y agowhat about working for an investment bank? How punk is that on the scale?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- criddell 2y agoIt could be very high on the scale. Like punks, bankers often don't ask for permission.
- baggachipz 2y agoGiven how often they break laws, ignore social norms, and thumb their noses at authorities... pretty damn punk.
- rootusrootus 2y agoHa! The amount of gatekeeping on the definition of punk that I've lived through makes me feel so old, but it also tickles me a little to see it come up again today. The more things change ...
- ipaddr 2y agoAnyone who releases an album for sale is a poser. Trying to make money from music is unpunk.
- mmastrac 2y agoThe classic No True Punksman fallacy.
- micromacrofoot 2y agoGatekeeping isn't punk
- anthomtb 2y agoAs a self-confessed "former punk", do you really deserve to make that assessment?
- barakm 2y ago“One, two, three, four Who’s punk what’s the score?” Get outta here with the gatekeeping
- a57721 2y agoI think "pop punk" is a good term, for me it's about the sound and delivery, it has nothing to do with commercial success, being "posers" etc. I think it's kind of evident from the music itself why someone who likes Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, Big Black, or GG Allin may not appreciate Green Day, NOFX and the likes (and vice versa). It's in the sound itself, ignoring the lyrics and everything else. Many bands without any mainstream success still play pop punk.
- jghn 2y agoI think of punk as being three completely separate variables, and for any individual or band they're independent of each other: 1) Ethos 2) Aesthetics/look & feel 3) Musical sound So someone could be punk as fuck ethos-wise but love listening to Yanni. Meanwhile a band could have a straight up anarcho-punk sound, but otherwise be white collar wage slaves But this is the root of so much disagreement. When Green Day started ascending in the 80s, people were pointing out the poppy music as not being "punk". But that's just one variable.
- doublerabbit 2y agoYou missed the fourth. Rebellion Punk is about rebellion, pop-punk is a good umbrella term as they had rebellious vibes but to call Green Day punk is a bit of a stretch.
- jghn 2y agoI was including that as part of `Ethos`. DYI, anti-authority, etc.
- hunter2_ 2y ago> Many bands without any mainstream success still play pop punk. The irony extends to the fact that while someone can play in the style of pop without being mainstream, they cannot literally be pop until they're popular. But if pop requires being popular and punk requires shunning the mainstream, pop punk couldn't exist. The fact that it does is therefore a bit of a paradox.
- elcomet 2y agoWhich band do you consider as punk?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- burningChrome 2y agoMisfits Black Flag Ramones TSOL SNFU Dead Kennedy's Bad Brains Descendents Minor Threat I think Punk was in its heyday in the 80's. I think its evolved over time and many people don't believe "pop punk" is really considered "punk" even though a lot of the themes we saw in the 80's punk bands are very clear and present in Green Day's music. Which then begs the question what really defines punk music? I'm honestly not sure because many of the hallmarks of the 80's punk was the poor production, guitars out of tune, singers who couldn't sing very well - all of which have been greatly improved when you consider Green Day's music. Billy Joe Armstrong is a phenomenal singer. Even on Dookie, the producer said a majority of the songs he did in a single take - which is staggering to think about. Their musical abilities are unquestionably much better than any of the 80's punk bands. Tre Cool's drumming is just on another level and I'm not sure many 80's era punk band drummers could ever hang with his abilities. Even the production level of Dookie was light years ahead of many of the seminal punk albums that came out in the 80's. Its easy to claim that Green Day isn't a "real" punk band, but when you start to compare them to the "prototypical" bands in the 80's, they sing about many of the same things, but have elevated the genre beyond what its really been known for. In the end, I have a harder time not calling them punk, there's just too many similarities to many of the most popular bands people know.
- doublerabbit 2y ago> Which then begs the question what really defines punk music? Rebellion against the mass. Sex Pistols, The Ramones, Joy Division are some of the leading pioneers of the movement. The 80's I would say is more toward post-punk. This split off in to Goth with The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees then genres such as New Wave, Synth with the likes of Depeche Mode and Gary Numan. The same as grunge did in the US with Nirvana and the likes. I would say that Grunge was America's post-punk phase. 90's then saw the age of pop, and pop-punk came from that. Media was more available. While Green Day held strong lyrics it's wasn't it. It didn't have the true spirit of punk. It was more rebellious against your parents as a teenager type vibe rather than take down the nation like prior. But I stand to be corrected. I've never really liked Blink, Offspring and Green Day. I was to busy being script kiddie, 13 listening to chiptunes and goth.
- slg 2y agoThere are few things more punk that spawning a 30+ year argument about them not being punk enough to be considered punk. They don't conform enough to the standards of the non-conformists?
- boomboomsubban 2y agoWow, the "is Green Day punk" argument also turned thirty. Probably older, I'm sure someone had it before Dookie.
- DowagerDave 2y agoA lot of punk has always had an anti-success edge, which seems really unfair. It should be more about DIY and freedom outside what was (in the 90's) a very restrictive, fixed business model. NOFX are the best of example of the punk aesthetic, but Green Day (the pop-punk band, not the Celtic folk band^) didn't sell out while achieving stratospheric success. ^Community reference
- rootusrootus 2y ago> A lot of punk has always had an anti-success edge I think you hit it on the nail. What makes some people uptight about Green Day being punk is not the music -- because objectively, punk's pretty much on point. It's the fact that they were wildly successful. Can't be punk any more when that happens.
- jghn 2y agoSort of. Even before their commercial success this issue was coming up. Granted the commercial success turned the knob to 11. There were already debates about their sound, that it was too poppy and mainstream sounding. Whether or not an ethos espousing rejecting authority should be applying authority on what other people sound like is another matter altogether :)
- petesergeant 2y ago> A lot of punk has always had an anti-success edge Alternative take: punk, as enjoyed by the connoisseur, sounds terrible to people who don't like punk, which limits its success
- joekrill 2y ago> didn't sell out while achieving stratospheric success. Their Keurig "partnership" might suggest otherwise. And it's not just because they've partnered with a huge corporation. But mainly because their coffee company - "Punk Bunny Coffee" - puts a huge emphasis on "sustainability". And while Keurig says sustainability is important, their actions suggest the exact opposite.
- nunez 2y agoSurprising take. Their sound and ethos is undeniably pop punk. They played Gilman St, a punk mecca in Berkeley. See some of their shows in the 90s and 00s. If you don't think that's punk, I don't know what to tell you. They didn't do much fast skate punk type stuff like NOFX and No Use did, but punk is a super wide genre anyway; to me, it's about what you are, not how you play (see also: second wave ska a la Reel Big Fish and No Doubt, or country cow-punk, like Hank Williams III) They leaned harder on the "pop" aspect of pop punk (American Idiot is widely considered one of the first punk operas ever made and is one of the best-selling rock albums ever) and experimented with their sound over the years (check out their stuff from the 2010s) but they never lost their edge, IMO (They dropped Saviors this year; incredible album.) Regardless, they inspired a zillion punk bands of all kinds. Hell, FOD, one of my favorite pop punk bands from The Netherlands, was inspired by FOD, which is on this record!
- jghn 2y ago> See some of their shows in the 90s and 00s I think this is part of the tension. By the mid-90s, "punk" had evolved from something that was a small band of weirdos into something larger. For instance normal, run of the mill high school kids were shopping the aesthetic at Hot Topic. I'm not suggesting this was good nor bad. But there was a huge culture shift happening. At a minimum, the punk aesthetic had shifted into the mainstream and poppier acts like Green Day helped to make that happen. So folks who had been used to getting made fun of and beat up for being punks in the 80s weren't always super happy to see this shift. Again, not suggesting they had the right to feel this way or not. But it happened. In general countercultures built around nonconformity have these tensions. Participants preach the nonconformity, but then reject people who don't fit a certain aesthetic. Participants preach openness, but then get upset when too many people join. It's just how it goes.
- lawgimenez 2y agoBrett of Bad Religion said that Nirvana’s Bleach was the first punk album that lead the way of how Rancid and Green Day’s sound today. Or made punk rock mainstream back then.
- hluska 2y agoI haven’t participated in this conversation since Kerplunk was released! San Francisco punk was always a little different but Green Day was part of the late 80s/early 90s punk scene in the Bay Area. It was all centered around 924 Gilman Street.
- acomjean 2y agoIt’s kinda punk pop. It has the intensity of punk. It definitely had the mosh pit element to it. I remember it being more intense than the grunge that was popular at the time. It was on MTV alot. But then again so were Primus and Faith No More. It was a different time. I was at the attempted free show in Boston in the 90s that ended after just a few songs. https://youtu.be/O7cJUUZIvNk?si=Yr7ivWCICTC0MTi7 https://youtu.be/O7cJUUZIvNk?si=Yr7ivWCICTC0MTi7 I thought I'd seen the end of the singing bass trophy, but if it has to come back this is a good way.