4 ms·

And you principally protect your property by… wait for it… paying taxes to the state to uphold law and order

bluGill 2y ago
That is not the state of nature though. There are "primitive" societies that don't organize their village that way. Social pressures and you working alone are enough to protect your property when the total population to worry about is around 100 people. We use taxes because nature doesn't scale to towns of 1000, much less nations of millions. But that is not the state of nature.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  The concept of property (the way we understand it i.e. all the stuff besides of a handful of personal items) is not something that generally exists or existed in "primitive" societies. i.e. you can't really "own" more land than you and your family can personally farm and extract rent on it without a state to protect your claim.
  - fluoridation 2y ago
    You can if you can convince others to protect it for you.
  - TheCoelacanth 2y ago
    And even much later under feudalism, property as we know it didn't really exist. Land (essentially the only productive asset that existed) was owned by the government, but the government was a loose network of aristocrats instead of a faceless state.
mmcdermott 2y ago
While I'm sure that someone somewhere objects to paying for law and order, I think most tax grumbling comes from taxes rising (and, arguably, still not rising enough) to pay for bigger and bigger programs with an increasingly tenuous relationship to law or order. Not everyone objects to every line item, of course, but the bigger the budget gets the more certain it becomes that those rising taxes are not just to keep up with inflation on basic essentials.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Yes that is the nature of compromise
  - mmcdermott 2y ago
    Agreed, but the post above draws a direct line between a taxes and basic law and order, but one could support scaling back any number of taxes and spending programs without opposing or endangering law and order.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      You don’t get the law and order unless the government is able to derive power from an accepting populace.
- arrosenberg 2y ago
  > I think most tax grumbling comes from taxes rising (and, arguably, still not rising enough) to pay for bigger and bigger programs with an increasingly tenuous relationship to law or order. The Constitution addresses this confusion in its' preamble. The role of the government includes law and maintaining order, but it extends further - "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
  - 2y ago

That is not the state of nature though. There are "primitive" societies that don't organize their village that way. Social pressures and you working alone are enough to protect your property when the total population to worry about is around 100 people. We use taxes because nature doesn't scale to towns of 1000, much less nations of millions. But that is not the state of nature.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Wytwwww 2y ago
The concept of property (the way we understand it i.e. all the stuff besides of a handful of personal items) is not something that generally exists or existed in "primitive" societies. i.e. you can't really "own" more land than you and your family can personally farm and extract rent on it without a state to protect your claim.
- fluoridation 2y ago
  You can if you can convince others to protect it for you.
- TheCoelacanth 2y ago
  And even much later under feudalism, property as we know it didn't really exist. Land (essentially the only productive asset that existed) was owned by the government, but the government was a loose network of aristocrats instead of a faceless state.

mmcdermott 2y ago

While I'm sure that someone somewhere objects to paying for law and order, I think most tax grumbling comes from taxes rising (and, arguably, still not rising enough) to pay for bigger and bigger programs with an increasingly tenuous relationship to law or order. Not everyone objects to every line item, of course, but the bigger the budget gets the more certain it becomes that those rising taxes are not just to keep up with inflation on basic essentials.

jncfhnb 2y ago
Yes that is the nature of compromise
- mmcdermott 2y ago
  Agreed, but the post above draws a direct line between a taxes and basic law and order, but one could support scaling back any number of taxes and spending programs without opposing or endangering law and order.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    You don’t get the law and order unless the government is able to derive power from an accepting populace.
arrosenberg 2y ago
> I think most tax grumbling comes from taxes rising (and, arguably, still not rising enough) to pay for bigger and bigger programs with an increasingly tenuous relationship to law or order. The Constitution addresses this confusion in its' preamble. The role of the government includes law and maintaining order, but it extends further - "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
- 2y ago