13 ms·

Wow, might be time to fork the project.

joewils 2y ago
https://www.classicpress.net https://www.classicpress.net
jart 2y ago
WPE is the most profitable business in the WordPress space, and they haven't changed a single line of code in WordPress or so much as contributed a dime. So if you're eager to volunteer to be their free labor, be my guest.
- danielfoster 2y ago
  Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Wordpress open source? WPE is under no obligation to contribute source code or money. If WP is unhappy with the outcome, they should have released their product under a different license.
  - jart 2y ago
    How would you feel about Google if they used things like Linux and never contributed anything to open source? As the most profitable entity in the WordPress space, WPE has a duty to give something back. What Matt is asking for isn't unreasonable.
    - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
      I would hope Google would help out, but I would also realize that it's ultimately their own choice if the license allows them to use it without donating time/money.
    - egil 2y ago
      When Google contribute to open source, they often do it to scratch their own itch. That's how most open source organizations works. What Automattic wants from WPE as laid outs in their term sheet is to dictate what WPE contributes and audit their accounting. Not exactly on the same playing field as other corporate contributions to open source projects. Not to mention the non-forking clause. Maybe setting up a proper independent governance of the WordPress project would encourage more independent contributions.
    - WorldWideWebb 2y ago
      That’s the point of the license WordPress is developed under - WPE, in fact, does not have a duty to give anything back.
    - duhblow7 2y ago
      WP.org should add this to their license then: >"it's free but only until the project owners deem you too successful and then you'll have to pay 8% of your revenues to support the project". https://world.hey.com/dhh/automattic-is-doing-open-source-dirty-b95cf128 https://world.hey.com/dhh/automattic-is-doing-open-source-di...
      - FireBeyond 2y ago
        I am very erratic on agreement with DHH's screeds, but this one hits the mark. Among all the more visible issues with this whole situation, he calls out a few things that I think need more awareness: 1. Matt decries Private Equity as leeches and freeloaders on free software, open source, and their community. 2. Automattic invested in WPE in the early days. In fact, Silver Lake, the PE firm that owns WPE, bought Automattic's share! Automattic sold to PE. 3. The WP Foundation has three members, two of whom show any sign of activity: Matt himself, and another person that Matt personally appointed who is... drum roll... the Managing Partner of a Private Equity firm. Somewhat ironic for someone who shit talks their competitors and Private Equity so vocally.
    - danielfoster 2y ago
      I wouldn’t mind because that’s what Linux agreed to when they chose the GPL route.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - bravetraveler 2y ago
      How we feel matters not, the license does. Before and after Google there is Linux. Same for Matt and this CMS lineage
    - threeseed 2y ago
      Of course it is unreasonable. He chose to use an open source license and benefit from all that open source entails. You can’t turn around and ignore the terms of the license just because it doesn’t suit you.
  - srmarm 2y ago
    I'd argue there is a moral obligation to support open source projects if you rely on them as a cornerstone of your business. However it's not a legal one. Open source is based on idealistic and community based mindset and modern tech is now based around extracting the dollars. The two aren't really compatible and it's really quite sad to see. That being said this the most stupid way to go about it.
    - jart 2y ago
      I agree. If Matt was smart, he would have spent the last ten years maintaining his advantage rather than ignoring the problem. Now that he's backed into a corner and forced to get real nasty to survive, I can't believe how much tech people are falling over themselves to shill for the slimy salesman organization. Only tech is like this. Folks like union workers would lay down their lives before crossing a picket line. But the concept of solidarity is completely lost on tech workers. No one turns against their own like us.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      I'd argue there is an even greater moral obligation to honor what your contracts say and don't say, and thus keep your word. Doing what you say is pretty key to the concept of integrity, which outweighs Matt's driving desire for more money. The moral obligation to not screw over a million innocent users also outweighs Matt's driving desire for more money.
  - __m 2y ago
    Wordpress itself is a fork, so they had to keep the license
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  That is absolutely and factually incorrect. Several of the most popular plugins are maintained by WPEngine. WPEngine donates/sponsors hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to WordPress community events. Indeed, the convention where Matt went "nuclear" was sponsored by WPE to the tune of $75,000 (and despite these all being supposedly independent entities, somehow WPE was banned from attending by the Foundation. No refund, though). > So if you're eager to volunteer to be their free labor, be my guest. Matt is demanding that WPE provide his for-profit company, Automattic, free labor, to be directed as Automattic see fit. Not the Foundation, not the open source project.
  - jart 2y ago
    I bet you those are sales / networking events and a WordPress software developer wasn't invited to a single one.
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      You'd be entirely wrong, then. That event was WordCamp, "the largest annual gathering in the U.S. of WordPress users", an event started by Matt Mullenweg: > WordCamps come in all different flavors, based on the local communities that produce them, but in general, WordCamps include sessions on how to use WordPress more effectively, beginning plugin and theme development, advanced techniques, security, etc. To get an idea of the types of sessions typically seen at WordCamps, check out the WordCamp channel at WordPress.tv.
- intelVISA 2y ago
  Down with rent-seeking! If a 'company' is just digital landlordism it's not surprising makers don't want to subsidize your free ride...
- solardev 2y ago
  Yeah, that's unfortunate, but... how many companies contribute back to Next? React? Node? PHP? Postgres? Linux? They don't get secretly blackmailed and publicly shamed for failure to do so. There are a lot of other WP hosts too (Pantheon, Cloudways, etc.) and they also don't get this same treatment, unless they all silently paid up and we just didn't know...? Sure, there's a gentleman's understanding that companies with resources should contribute back to the projects they use, but it's not a hard and fast moral or legal code. It's disturbing and frankly terrifying for all downstream WordPress companies and users for Matt to blow this so out of proportion to the actual crime of "failing to contribute back to open source", which so many of us are guilty of every single day.
stevenicr 2y ago
project was forked a while back in a semi-big way (classicPress) and I was super excited about it. Some years later I believe the story I saw said that they had less than $200 / month being donated to the project to keep it going. Now I LOVE the idea of a wordpress minus gutenberg, with all the code quality and security updates and modern themes and plugins all working together.. Do I think this is legit going to be sustainable with hardly anyone chipping in time and money - well, for an open source hobby site, $200 a year put into security might be fine.. Some of the more important websites using wordpress as a backend might want to rethink all of that. Which is funny, because essentially that is what Matt is saying in the first place - for those who profit from it and can afford to, please donate so we can keep on keeping on.
- robertoandred 2y ago
  A WordPress fork without Gutenberg doesn't really work as an alternative for sites built in the last five years or so.
  - stevenicr 2y ago
    I'd like you to expand on reasons for this? I can think of a few for some cases.. However I have around 50 websites or so that are running just fine without Gutenberg.. and if you count the number of updates WP and plugins and themes have rolled out since Gutenberg and multiple that by 50, most of these updates have been an annoying use of time. That being said, Gutenberg stuff today is pretty mature and I do recommend it and use it projects launched post 2024, partially because it's mature at this point, but not insignificantly because it is built into core. I railed long ago that Matt and co should develop Gutenberg, but do it as an optional add-in. I would still build sites today without it if it wasn't baked into core.. altough I will say that as of today, core gutenberg and default theme with FSE is a fine way to build, it's different in many ways, sometimes confusing especially for those who are not used to navigating around FSE differently - but it can be decent to look at on the front end with default tools, and it's lean as far as size and page speed / load time (comparatively speaking). But depending on the use case, and what tooling one may already have at hand, I still feel it could be fine to build without Gutenberg completely.. astra / spectra and stuff from brainstorm force for example would be decent to build with the past few years with not guten needed.. other page builders like siteorigin's were already doing most the things without the delays in development, and removal of standard long standing features like the menus screen and hiding the custom css option..

https://www.classicpress.net https://www.classicpress.net

jart 2y ago

WPE is the most profitable business in the WordPress space, and they haven't changed a single line of code in WordPress or so much as contributed a dime. So if you're eager to volunteer to be their free labor, be my guest.

danielfoster 2y ago
Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Wordpress open source? WPE is under no obligation to contribute source code or money. If WP is unhappy with the outcome, they should have released their product under a different license.
- jart 2y ago
  How would you feel about Google if they used things like Linux and never contributed anything to open source? As the most profitable entity in the WordPress space, WPE has a duty to give something back. What Matt is asking for isn't unreasonable.
  - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
    I would hope Google would help out, but I would also realize that it's ultimately their own choice if the license allows them to use it without donating time/money.
  - egil 2y ago
    When Google contribute to open source, they often do it to scratch their own itch. That's how most open source organizations works. What Automattic wants from WPE as laid outs in their term sheet is to dictate what WPE contributes and audit their accounting. Not exactly on the same playing field as other corporate contributions to open source projects. Not to mention the non-forking clause. Maybe setting up a proper independent governance of the WordPress project would encourage more independent contributions.
  - WorldWideWebb 2y ago
    That’s the point of the license WordPress is developed under - WPE, in fact, does not have a duty to give anything back.
  - duhblow7 2y ago
    WP.org should add this to their license then: >"it's free but only until the project owners deem you too successful and then you'll have to pay 8% of your revenues to support the project". https://world.hey.com/dhh/automattic-is-doing-open-source-dirty-b95cf128 https://world.hey.com/dhh/automattic-is-doing-open-source-di...
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      I am very erratic on agreement with DHH's screeds, but this one hits the mark. Among all the more visible issues with this whole situation, he calls out a few things that I think need more awareness: 1. Matt decries Private Equity as leeches and freeloaders on free software, open source, and their community. 2. Automattic invested in WPE in the early days. In fact, Silver Lake, the PE firm that owns WPE, bought Automattic's share! Automattic sold to PE. 3. The WP Foundation has three members, two of whom show any sign of activity: Matt himself, and another person that Matt personally appointed who is... drum roll... the Managing Partner of a Private Equity firm. Somewhat ironic for someone who shit talks their competitors and Private Equity so vocally.
  - danielfoster 2y ago
    I wouldn’t mind because that’s what Linux agreed to when they chose the GPL route.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - bravetraveler 2y ago
    How we feel matters not, the license does. Before and after Google there is Linux. Same for Matt and this CMS lineage
  - threeseed 2y ago
    Of course it is unreasonable. He chose to use an open source license and benefit from all that open source entails. You can’t turn around and ignore the terms of the license just because it doesn’t suit you.
- srmarm 2y ago
  I'd argue there is a moral obligation to support open source projects if you rely on them as a cornerstone of your business. However it's not a legal one. Open source is based on idealistic and community based mindset and modern tech is now based around extracting the dollars. The two aren't really compatible and it's really quite sad to see. That being said this the most stupid way to go about it.
  - jart 2y ago
    I agree. If Matt was smart, he would have spent the last ten years maintaining his advantage rather than ignoring the problem. Now that he's backed into a corner and forced to get real nasty to survive, I can't believe how much tech people are falling over themselves to shill for the slimy salesman organization. Only tech is like this. Folks like union workers would lay down their lives before crossing a picket line. But the concept of solidarity is completely lost on tech workers. No one turns against their own like us.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    I'd argue there is an even greater moral obligation to honor what your contracts say and don't say, and thus keep your word. Doing what you say is pretty key to the concept of integrity, which outweighs Matt's driving desire for more money. The moral obligation to not screw over a million innocent users also outweighs Matt's driving desire for more money.
- __m 2y ago
  Wordpress itself is a fork, so they had to keep the license
FireBeyond 2y ago
That is absolutely and factually incorrect. Several of the most popular plugins are maintained by WPEngine. WPEngine donates/sponsors hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to WordPress community events. Indeed, the convention where Matt went "nuclear" was sponsored by WPE to the tune of $75,000 (and despite these all being supposedly independent entities, somehow WPE was banned from attending by the Foundation. No refund, though). > So if you're eager to volunteer to be their free labor, be my guest. Matt is demanding that WPE provide his for-profit company, Automattic, free labor, to be directed as Automattic see fit. Not the Foundation, not the open source project.
- jart 2y ago
  I bet you those are sales / networking events and a WordPress software developer wasn't invited to a single one.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    You'd be entirely wrong, then. That event was WordCamp, "the largest annual gathering in the U.S. of WordPress users", an event started by Matt Mullenweg: > WordCamps come in all different flavors, based on the local communities that produce them, but in general, WordCamps include sessions on how to use WordPress more effectively, beginning plugin and theme development, advanced techniques, security, etc. To get an idea of the types of sessions typically seen at WordCamps, check out the WordCamp channel at WordPress.tv.
intelVISA 2y ago
Down with rent-seeking! If a 'company' is just digital landlordism it's not surprising makers don't want to subsidize your free ride...
solardev 2y ago
Yeah, that's unfortunate, but... how many companies contribute back to Next? React? Node? PHP? Postgres? Linux? They don't get secretly blackmailed and publicly shamed for failure to do so. There are a lot of other WP hosts too (Pantheon, Cloudways, etc.) and they also don't get this same treatment, unless they all silently paid up and we just didn't know...? Sure, there's a gentleman's understanding that companies with resources should contribute back to the projects they use, but it's not a hard and fast moral or legal code. It's disturbing and frankly terrifying for all downstream WordPress companies and users for Matt to blow this so out of proportion to the actual crime of "failing to contribute back to open source", which so many of us are guilty of every single day.

stevenicr 2y ago

project was forked a while back in a semi-big way (classicPress) and I was super excited about it. Some years later I believe the story I saw said that they had less than $200 / month being donated to the project to keep it going. Now I LOVE the idea of a wordpress minus gutenberg, with all the code quality and security updates and modern themes and plugins all working together.. Do I think this is legit going to be sustainable with hardly anyone chipping in time and money - well, for an open source hobby site, $200 a year put into security might be fine.. Some of the more important websites using wordpress as a backend might want to rethink all of that. Which is funny, because essentially that is what Matt is saying in the first place - for those who profit from it and can afford to, please donate so we can keep on keeping on.

robertoandred 2y ago
A WordPress fork without Gutenberg doesn't really work as an alternative for sites built in the last five years or so.
- stevenicr 2y ago
  I'd like you to expand on reasons for this? I can think of a few for some cases.. However I have around 50 websites or so that are running just fine without Gutenberg.. and if you count the number of updates WP and plugins and themes have rolled out since Gutenberg and multiple that by 50, most of these updates have been an annoying use of time. That being said, Gutenberg stuff today is pretty mature and I do recommend it and use it projects launched post 2024, partially because it's mature at this point, but not insignificantly because it is built into core. I railed long ago that Matt and co should develop Gutenberg, but do it as an optional add-in. I would still build sites today without it if it wasn't baked into core.. altough I will say that as of today, core gutenberg and default theme with FSE is a fine way to build, it's different in many ways, sometimes confusing especially for those who are not used to navigating around FSE differently - but it can be decent to look at on the front end with default tools, and it's lean as far as size and page speed / load time (comparatively speaking). But depending on the use case, and what tooling one may already have at hand, I still feel it could be fine to build without Gutenberg completely.. astra / spectra and stuff from brainstorm force for example would be decent to build with the past few years with not guten needed.. other page builders like siteorigin's were already doing most the things without the delays in development, and removal of standard long standing features like the menus screen and hiding the custom css option..