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I think most people would agree with you. Electrical power outages are somewhat common, but gas delivery seems very solid. Yet when selecting a home backup ge

I think most people would agree with you. Electrical power outages are somewhat common, but gas delivery seems very solid. Yet when selecting a home backup generator, most people opt for a gasoline powered generator and NOT one powered by natural gas.

zrail 2y ago
Gasoline generators are significantly cheaper. There are some tri-fuel generators that can run on gasoline, propane, or natural gas, but again they're more expensive. A natural gas powered permanent standby generator is amazing for peace of mind but they're a significant investment.
- bob1029 2y ago
  I have more faith in my 2200 watt inverter generator than a typical residential standby unit. If something goes wrong with a generac, you likely need a service tech to come out. If my portable unit acts up I have a 2nd new one in a box just in case. They're so cheap you can basically afford to keep one fresh for each disaster.
  - zrail 2y ago
    Inverter units are nice, those Honda engines run forever. I've had my 26kW generac for almost two years and it's done several multi-day outages without issue. I just have my mechanical contractor come out and do the annual maintenance on schedule, keep track of the weekly self-tests, and otherwise don't worry about it.
    - rootusrootus 2y ago
      I want one, but can't justify it. Probably be into it around 10K installed, maybe more. We've only had one multi-day outage in the 12 years we've lived here, because our wiring is all underground and it took a century level storm to wipe it out. We get occasional outages of a few minutes to a couple hours in the winter if a tree hits a power line somewhere in the nearby above-ground grid, but that's about it. I'd still love to be the only guy in the neighborhood all lit up when everyone else goes dark :). To be fair, I'd actually be #2 now, guy a few houses up the street is that beacon of light now. But still. When we were shopping for houses out in the sticks, I had that generator budgeted right into the price of the house. If I got a multi-day outage very year, it's a no brainer.
      - zrail 2y ago
        Yep, exactly. At our previous place we never had an outage last more than a couple hours, in 7 years, so it didn't make sense. Current place has had four in the span of four years, plus we have geothermal heat so we can't just hook the furnace to a portable genset. It'll never pencil out in terms of dollars saved on lost food and hotels, but just knowing that the power will be out for a max of 15-20 seconds makes it worth it for us.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    Love my little 2K watt inverter generators, but I don't think it's a good substitute for a residential standby unit. I can't get a 240V split phase generator that can be carried, that's the big thing. I could get past the time it takes to turn on the generator, but there's a good chunk of my house that won't run without 240V (unless I want to run extension cords everywhere, which I do not...).
    - bob1029 2y ago
      Obviously the little inverter generators can't carry the normal load, but you can adapt to it. The biggest thing for most people is running their AC condenser. A portable inverter AC unit (ideally a dual-hose unit) will pull ~1700w on the high setting. You can cool a solid 1000 sqft even in the Texas heat with something like this while also running your lamps/wifi/starlink/fridge/etc. Combine with something like an EcoFlow battery, and you can actually shut it off completely while you sleep (and lock it up inside safely). Setting the AC to the low setting will reduce its consumption to ~400w intermittently which will easily run on a 2.5kWh battery all night. The other advantage of the EcoFlow is that you can temporarily run much larger loads than the generator is directly capable of. Really good for induction cooktops and getting your washing machine spin cycle up to speed.
- Damogran6 2y ago
  Propane has substantially less energy per unit mass than gasolene. In our RV, we have a gas generator and propane for the heater/fridge...Propane is MUCH better than batteries to run the Fridge as well. 4 LiFEPO4 batteries run our fridge for about 8 hours. two 30lb propane tanks would run it for about a week, and the 30 gallon gas tank just recharging the batteries to just power the fridge could probably go 2.5 weeks.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    Solar is the answer. Propane fridges are incredibly slow to cool. Best thing I did for my RV quality of life was install a bunch of LFP and a few solar panels, along with a compressor fridge. I don't miss the old absorption fridges at all.
    - Damogran6 2y ago
      I probably will when the budget frees back up, the ROI isn't there for the number of times a year we boondock completely off-grid.
mannykannot 2y ago
IIRC, the big Texas freeze of a couple of years ago knocked out both pipelined gas and electricity supplies, and over a much wider area than just Texas, on account of the interdependence of both systems. Of course, once you run out of gasoline or propane, you are once again dependent on the infrastructure.
- zrail 2y ago
  It turns out that was ordinary fraud[1] not a flaw in the physical plant. States with functional regulatory bodies don't have this problem. At most you get a situation like Michigan in the winter of 2019 where there was a massive fire at a primary storage facility and they asked everyone to conserve gas if possible. [1]: https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4896585-texas-gas-manipulation-lawsuit-uri/amp/ https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4896585-texas-g...
  - mannykannot 2y ago
    I see this is developing news, and interesting in its own right, though without a clear resolution yet. Regardless, one only needs the outcome of the event to be aware of the possibility of a common-mode failure disrupting both electrical and pipelined natural gas supplies at the same time.
    - jmbwell 2y ago
      As long as the flow of money isn’t disrupted, the system works as designed. The most significant laws Texas enacted after the freeze — HB 3 and 5, SB 1015 and 2627 - mainly establish new funding for gas-fired plant construction, cut funding for renewable construction, and allow energy companies to raise rates on customers more frequently. Observers will note that gas fired plants had the most unplanned outages, while renewable sources had the fewest. In any case, what matters is that the $9/kWh costs are duly distributed to the customers and tax payers, to the benefit of energy traders.
  - bob1029 2y ago
    I recall the spot price of natural gas going through the roof leading up to the crisis. I would be less shocked to find out this was an intentional winding down of capacity for economic reasons.
mauvehaus 2y ago
There are probably two good reasons for this: 1) Getting natural gas plumbed to your generator is expensive. 2) If you're running this generator for an extended period of time, things have pretty much by definition gone to shit and aren't working as designed. You have a lot fewer dependencies to go fill a couple of jerrycans with gas at the nearest gas station (that has both gas and power to pump it [0]) than you have to restore piped natural gas service to your property. [0] And if a gas station loses power, getting it hooked back up restores its utility to everyone, whereas restoring power or natural gas service to a home only restores its utility to the person living there. Prioritizing gas stations over private homes makes a lot of sense.
- zrail 2y ago
  Your second point depends on your threat model. Personally my threat model is a wind or ice storm taking down the aerial electrical lines in my area (SE Michigan). The natural gas lines are all buried and the pumping stations are powered by natural gas so are inherently more reliable. If your threat model involves civilization deteriorating to the point where natural gas stops working then sure, a generator with fuel storage on site probably makes more sense. I'd argue that gasoline is the worst of available options though. Diesel and propane are much more shelf stable and typically more reliable than small gasoline engines.
  - ordu 2y ago
    > a generator with fuel storage on site probably makes more sense Storing fuel is dangerous in general, but I believe that liquefied gas is more dangerous. It is more tricky. For example you need to store it in a ventilated environment, to prevent gas buildup. If you turned wrong nut you'll may be not able to turn if back due to pressure.[1] It can be treated safely, but it much more tricky that with liquid fuel. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzdnUZReoLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzdnUZReoLM
    - mindslight 2y ago
      With propane, there is also the problem of the vaporization rate being very low at winter temperatures. I've got a small 2500W (1850W continuous) dual-fuel generator that I had expected to be able to run off of a 20lb propane tank. It didn't work at all when I actually needed it (surprise!), and I ended up just running on gasoline and having to go out to get more. It has since been working fine off of 3 tanks teed together, although I still haven't seen middle of the winter arctic blast temperatures with that set up yet.
userbinator 2y ago
Diesel generators are better than gasoline as the fuel can be stored for much longer, and has a higher energy density. Of course, the up-front cost is also higher.
rootusrootus 2y ago
That must be a regional preference. I don't know anyone that isn't a big institution that has a backup generator powered by diesel (and definitely not gasoline). Permanently installed home backup generators are invariably natural gas or propane. Gasoline is a terrible choice in any case, it goes bad quickly if you don't stabilize it. The only time I ever see gasoline being used it's with little portable generators. Even then, I see a lot of people starting to choose propane instead now.
fires10 2y ago
Gas distribution systems are often shut off in my area during natural disasters. That's why I usually install a propane or diesel generator. They run off a tank.

zrail 2y ago

Gasoline generators are significantly cheaper. There are some tri-fuel generators that can run on gasoline, propane, or natural gas, but again they're more expensive. A natural gas powered permanent standby generator is amazing for peace of mind but they're a significant investment.

bob1029 2y ago
I have more faith in my 2200 watt inverter generator than a typical residential standby unit. If something goes wrong with a generac, you likely need a service tech to come out. If my portable unit acts up I have a 2nd new one in a box just in case. They're so cheap you can basically afford to keep one fresh for each disaster.
- zrail 2y ago
  Inverter units are nice, those Honda engines run forever. I've had my 26kW generac for almost two years and it's done several multi-day outages without issue. I just have my mechanical contractor come out and do the annual maintenance on schedule, keep track of the weekly self-tests, and otherwise don't worry about it.
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    I want one, but can't justify it. Probably be into it around 10K installed, maybe more. We've only had one multi-day outage in the 12 years we've lived here, because our wiring is all underground and it took a century level storm to wipe it out. We get occasional outages of a few minutes to a couple hours in the winter if a tree hits a power line somewhere in the nearby above-ground grid, but that's about it. I'd still love to be the only guy in the neighborhood all lit up when everyone else goes dark :). To be fair, I'd actually be #2 now, guy a few houses up the street is that beacon of light now. But still. When we were shopping for houses out in the sticks, I had that generator budgeted right into the price of the house. If I got a multi-day outage very year, it's a no brainer.
    - zrail 2y ago
      Yep, exactly. At our previous place we never had an outage last more than a couple hours, in 7 years, so it didn't make sense. Current place has had four in the span of four years, plus we have geothermal heat so we can't just hook the furnace to a portable genset. It'll never pencil out in terms of dollars saved on lost food and hotels, but just knowing that the power will be out for a max of 15-20 seconds makes it worth it for us.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Love my little 2K watt inverter generators, but I don't think it's a good substitute for a residential standby unit. I can't get a 240V split phase generator that can be carried, that's the big thing. I could get past the time it takes to turn on the generator, but there's a good chunk of my house that won't run without 240V (unless I want to run extension cords everywhere, which I do not...).
  - bob1029 2y ago
    Obviously the little inverter generators can't carry the normal load, but you can adapt to it. The biggest thing for most people is running their AC condenser. A portable inverter AC unit (ideally a dual-hose unit) will pull ~1700w on the high setting. You can cool a solid 1000 sqft even in the Texas heat with something like this while also running your lamps/wifi/starlink/fridge/etc. Combine with something like an EcoFlow battery, and you can actually shut it off completely while you sleep (and lock it up inside safely). Setting the AC to the low setting will reduce its consumption to ~400w intermittently which will easily run on a 2.5kWh battery all night. The other advantage of the EcoFlow is that you can temporarily run much larger loads than the generator is directly capable of. Really good for induction cooktops and getting your washing machine spin cycle up to speed.
Damogran6 2y ago
Propane has substantially less energy per unit mass than gasolene. In our RV, we have a gas generator and propane for the heater/fridge...Propane is MUCH better than batteries to run the Fridge as well. 4 LiFEPO4 batteries run our fridge for about 8 hours. two 30lb propane tanks would run it for about a week, and the 30 gallon gas tank just recharging the batteries to just power the fridge could probably go 2.5 weeks.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Solar is the answer. Propane fridges are incredibly slow to cool. Best thing I did for my RV quality of life was install a bunch of LFP and a few solar panels, along with a compressor fridge. I don't miss the old absorption fridges at all.
  - Damogran6 2y ago
    I probably will when the budget frees back up, the ROI isn't there for the number of times a year we boondock completely off-grid.

mannykannot 2y ago

IIRC, the big Texas freeze of a couple of years ago knocked out both pipelined gas and electricity supplies, and over a much wider area than just Texas, on account of the interdependence of both systems. Of course, once you run out of gasoline or propane, you are once again dependent on the infrastructure.

zrail 2y ago
It turns out that was ordinary fraud[1] not a flaw in the physical plant. States with functional regulatory bodies don't have this problem. At most you get a situation like Michigan in the winter of 2019 where there was a massive fire at a primary storage facility and they asked everyone to conserve gas if possible. [1]: https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4896585-texas-gas-manipulation-lawsuit-uri/amp/ https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4896585-texas-g...
- mannykannot 2y ago
  I see this is developing news, and interesting in its own right, though without a clear resolution yet. Regardless, one only needs the outcome of the event to be aware of the possibility of a common-mode failure disrupting both electrical and pipelined natural gas supplies at the same time.
  - jmbwell 2y ago
    As long as the flow of money isn’t disrupted, the system works as designed. The most significant laws Texas enacted after the freeze — HB 3 and 5, SB 1015 and 2627 - mainly establish new funding for gas-fired plant construction, cut funding for renewable construction, and allow energy companies to raise rates on customers more frequently. Observers will note that gas fired plants had the most unplanned outages, while renewable sources had the fewest. In any case, what matters is that the $9/kWh costs are duly distributed to the customers and tax payers, to the benefit of energy traders.
- bob1029 2y ago
  I recall the spot price of natural gas going through the roof leading up to the crisis. I would be less shocked to find out this was an intentional winding down of capacity for economic reasons.

mauvehaus 2y ago

There are probably two good reasons for this: 1) Getting natural gas plumbed to your generator is expensive. 2) If you're running this generator for an extended period of time, things have pretty much by definition gone to shit and aren't working as designed. You have a lot fewer dependencies to go fill a couple of jerrycans with gas at the nearest gas station (that has both gas and power to pump it [0]) than you have to restore piped natural gas service to your property. [0] And if a gas station loses power, getting it hooked back up restores its utility to everyone, whereas restoring power or natural gas service to a home only restores its utility to the person living there. Prioritizing gas stations over private homes makes a lot of sense.

zrail 2y ago
Your second point depends on your threat model. Personally my threat model is a wind or ice storm taking down the aerial electrical lines in my area (SE Michigan). The natural gas lines are all buried and the pumping stations are powered by natural gas so are inherently more reliable. If your threat model involves civilization deteriorating to the point where natural gas stops working then sure, a generator with fuel storage on site probably makes more sense. I'd argue that gasoline is the worst of available options though. Diesel and propane are much more shelf stable and typically more reliable than small gasoline engines.
- ordu 2y ago
  > a generator with fuel storage on site probably makes more sense Storing fuel is dangerous in general, but I believe that liquefied gas is more dangerous. It is more tricky. For example you need to store it in a ventilated environment, to prevent gas buildup. If you turned wrong nut you'll may be not able to turn if back due to pressure.[1] It can be treated safely, but it much more tricky that with liquid fuel. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzdnUZReoLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzdnUZReoLM
  - mindslight 2y ago
    With propane, there is also the problem of the vaporization rate being very low at winter temperatures. I've got a small 2500W (1850W continuous) dual-fuel generator that I had expected to be able to run off of a 20lb propane tank. It didn't work at all when I actually needed it (surprise!), and I ended up just running on gasoline and having to go out to get more. It has since been working fine off of 3 tanks teed together, although I still haven't seen middle of the winter arctic blast temperatures with that set up yet.

userbinator 2y ago

Diesel generators are better than gasoline as the fuel can be stored for much longer, and has a higher energy density. Of course, the up-front cost is also higher.

rootusrootus 2y ago

That must be a regional preference. I don't know anyone that isn't a big institution that has a backup generator powered by diesel (and definitely not gasoline). Permanently installed home backup generators are invariably natural gas or propane. Gasoline is a terrible choice in any case, it goes bad quickly if you don't stabilize it. The only time I ever see gasoline being used it's with little portable generators. Even then, I see a lot of people starting to choose propane instead now.

fires10 2y ago

Gas distribution systems are often shut off in my area during natural disasters. That's why I usually install a propane or diesel generator. They run off a tank.