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Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture or else leave. But they

Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture or else leave. But they are in the US, working for a US company - why is it somehow acceptable when you are a foreigner to create these isolated professional enclaves that exclude the "native" population? (A group of people casually getting together is totally different to someone's work environment where they have to attend to bring a paycheck home - I'm talking exclusively about professional/work environments)

quadrifoliate 2y ago
> Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture. But they are in the US, working for a US company - why is it somehow acceptable when you are a foreigner to create these isolated professional enclaves that exclude the "native" population? Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US, and I don't see a reasonable basis for concluding that non-Hispanic white culture should be the "native" or "default" culture in the US. Sure, it might be the dominant culture — but there are other subcultures like Black or Hispanic cultures that are pretty strong here. Would you feel comfortable asking how to stop a group of Black coworkers from going to a restaurant that serves Black cuisine, or Hispanic coworkers from going to the local taqueria? If not, then why are you singling out Indians?
- miningape 2y ago
  Hence the quotation marks: "native" - you're just derailing a legitimate line of reasoning. > I don't see a reasonable basis for concluding that European-American culture should be the "native" or "default" culture in the US Like it or not, it is the dominant culture especially in professional environments. If you want to have a conversation about why that is the case, what else it could be, etc. thats fine! But it's not the kind of conversation I'm looking to have here. > Would you feel comfortable asking how to stop a group of Black coworkers from going to a restaurant that serves Black cuisine, or Hispanic coworkers from going to the local taqueria? If they are doing it to the detriment of the overall business yes! - the line of reasoning follows for a predominantly Black business that is having a White enclave forming. Or a Hispanic cultured business with a Slavic enclave forming. Even more importantly a multicultural environment which is having 1 group overtake it. It's fundamentally a job of business leaders to set the tone and direction of company culture - and this is one aspect of it.
  - quadrifoliate 2y ago
    > Like it or not, it is the dominant culture especially in professional environments. At least sometimes it's not, which is why the OP feels so excluded and is asking for tips on how to navigate the clearly unfamiliar feeling of not being able to just "fit in" as part of the dominant culture. The reality is that the US is a melting pot with a lot of subcultures, and you should learn to navigate those subcultures instead of demanding that they conform to some mythical default. Maybe next time the OP should show some curiosity about what their coworkers are joking about, and shyly ask for a seat at the table. I have done it plenty of times.
    - miningape 2y ago
      > Maybe next time the OP should show some curiosity about what their coworkers are joking about, and shyly ask for a seat at the table. I have done it plenty of times. Yep 100% this is the only decent solution OP has barring leaving the company. It leads to really interesting conversations and you get to learn a lot about a huge portion of the planet's population. Some people go out of their way for these experiences. But it also shouldn't be forced on someone who just wants to collect a paycheck.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        A lot of arguments here are getting caught on the wrong details. It's good to experience new cultures and stretch out of ones comfort zone! But cultural similarity is also the strongest form of bias in office dynamics. So, it's great if people go to Indian restaurants. It's not great if people only go to Indian restaurants. It's not great if people only go to steakhouses. And it's especially not great if colleagues don't make efforts to include less culturally similar colleagues in events, whatever the cultures in question.
    - fennecfoxy 2y ago
      Shouldn't the members of the enclave proactively reach out themselves, then? As the host country has tried to make things more comfortable for them to start with. That seem to be the major difference between Western and non-Western countries; we're more cognisant of things like racism/being excluded and have taken steps to try to resolve it - you do not get the same in many other countries at all. It seems it's much more acceptable to be exclusionary and racist if you're non-white, sometimes.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  >> non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US Then to where is it native? Don't deny a culture its existence just because it isn't the first culture to arise within a particular area. Example: Mormon culture and religion is "native" the US despite certainly not being the first culture in the area.
  - quadrifoliate 2y ago
    I am not the one throwing around the word "native" casually. To cite your example, Salt Lake City was founded less than 200 years ago whereas Puebloans have been living in the area for several thousands of years. You can certainly make a claim that Mormon culture is "native" to Utah, but I think at 200 v/s 5000+ you can expect that claim to be contested.
    - karpatic 2y ago
      Funny enough, the definition has nothing to do with ancestry. "Native: a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not."
      - miningape 2y ago
        Yeah, this is the exact sense in which I wrote it originally - but I sensed the screams of 1000 idiots and wrote "native" to try avoid that entire line of conversation. It seems though that my efforts went unnoticed - oh well!
- lupusreal 2y ago
  > Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US, Weird exclusion; Hispanic white Americans aren't native to the US either; their ancestors came from Spain.
- kshGa 2y ago
  The dominant culture of Google and Microsoft when they were founded was [...]. Now they have Indian CEOs and companies like Cognizant bring in H1B visas from India. There is nothing organic about that. Personally I have no experience with Indian co-workers, but I do know that Black and Hispanic people do not exclude whites at all. I have only great experiences with them.
- 1over137 2y ago
  >Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US... The word Hispanic comes from Hispania meaning "Iberian Peninsula", which, I have news for you, is in Europe. They are hardly native to the USA either.
  - karpatic 2y ago
    It was an amazing statement to read. I'm glad someone else caught that
    - quadrifoliate 2y ago
      I am aware of Hispania, etc. The thing you're perhaps missing is that 'minignape began their comment with "as a white person...". That is usually a characterization used by non-Hispanic white people; hence my reply referenced non-Hispanic whites. I also wanted to highlight that they would probably be tolerant of an unfamiliar Hispanic white in-group at their company, but weren't tolerant of a South Asian one.
      - karpatic 2y ago
        Text makes communication hard. Have a good day bud.
        quadrifoliate 2y ago
        > And that's just false. And rude. Sorry, I'm just going to have to go with the consensus of the majority of scientific study on this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United.... I'm sure you'll find some like-minded people that share your worldview and are not "rude".
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    Hispanic was initially just a way to tag the white non-protestant. Currently is a loose box to include a mix of Mediterranean, African and American natives. Some of this people definitely have American natives on their family lines and other are not even related with Europeans or not much. When Hispanic mix with Irish, or English, or French or North European, they are simply called "white". A lot of Spaniards are as much "white" in their aspect as one could ask for. They are just labeled as "non white" for outdated reasons but people always chuckle about it. Is just silly.
- mc32 2y ago
  People born in the US are native to the US -or are you arguing for de sanguinis citizenship? Chinese and Indians do follow de sanguinis, so maybe you’re making the case?
- shrubble 2y ago
  Actually Whites have as much if not more claims to North America than any other group; there’s multiple times that they came to NA, including the Solutreans of about 12000 years ago: https://insider.si.edu/2012/03/ice-age-mariners-from-europe-were-the-first-people-to-reach-north-america/ https://insider.si.edu/2012/03/ice-age-mariners-from-europe-... ; plus the Viking settlement of 1021; plus the more recent fact of the USA being settled and turning wildernesses into the agricultural and technological powerhouse of today.
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    That’s funny I don’t see anything about this in the constitution Also, weren’t Solutreans brown skinned?
- ImJamal 2y ago
  Nobody is native to America. Humanity started (at least it is the general opinion) in Africa. Those we are referring to as native migrated to America.
robofanatic 2y ago
Thats a typical western mentality. If you do it then it is a problem but if I do the same thing it is somehow justifiable!
- miningape 2y ago
  > I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture or else leave What? It's apparently white to want to fit in with the local culture now.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

quadrifoliate 2y ago

> Yeah, and I'd expect that treatment as a white person working/living in India, and I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture. But they are in the US, working for a US company - why is it somehow acceptable when you are a foreigner to create these isolated professional enclaves that exclude the "native" population? Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US, and I don't see a reasonable basis for concluding that non-Hispanic white culture should be the "native" or "default" culture in the US. Sure, it might be the dominant culture — but there are other subcultures like Black or Hispanic cultures that are pretty strong here. Would you feel comfortable asking how to stop a group of Black coworkers from going to a restaurant that serves Black cuisine, or Hispanic coworkers from going to the local taqueria? If not, then why are you singling out Indians?

miningape 2y ago
Hence the quotation marks: "native" - you're just derailing a legitimate line of reasoning. > I don't see a reasonable basis for concluding that European-American culture should be the "native" or "default" culture in the US Like it or not, it is the dominant culture especially in professional environments. If you want to have a conversation about why that is the case, what else it could be, etc. thats fine! But it's not the kind of conversation I'm looking to have here. > Would you feel comfortable asking how to stop a group of Black coworkers from going to a restaurant that serves Black cuisine, or Hispanic coworkers from going to the local taqueria? If they are doing it to the detriment of the overall business yes! - the line of reasoning follows for a predominantly Black business that is having a White enclave forming. Or a Hispanic cultured business with a Slavic enclave forming. Even more importantly a multicultural environment which is having 1 group overtake it. It's fundamentally a job of business leaders to set the tone and direction of company culture - and this is one aspect of it.
- quadrifoliate 2y ago
  > Like it or not, it is the dominant culture especially in professional environments. At least sometimes it's not, which is why the OP feels so excluded and is asking for tips on how to navigate the clearly unfamiliar feeling of not being able to just "fit in" as part of the dominant culture. The reality is that the US is a melting pot with a lot of subcultures, and you should learn to navigate those subcultures instead of demanding that they conform to some mythical default. Maybe next time the OP should show some curiosity about what their coworkers are joking about, and shyly ask for a seat at the table. I have done it plenty of times.
  - miningape 2y ago
    > Maybe next time the OP should show some curiosity about what their coworkers are joking about, and shyly ask for a seat at the table. I have done it plenty of times. Yep 100% this is the only decent solution OP has barring leaving the company. It leads to really interesting conversations and you get to learn a lot about a huge portion of the planet's population. Some people go out of their way for these experiences. But it also shouldn't be forced on someone who just wants to collect a paycheck.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      A lot of arguments here are getting caught on the wrong details. It's good to experience new cultures and stretch out of ones comfort zone! But cultural similarity is also the strongest form of bias in office dynamics. So, it's great if people go to Indian restaurants. It's not great if people only go to Indian restaurants. It's not great if people only go to steakhouses. And it's especially not great if colleagues don't make efforts to include less culturally similar colleagues in events, whatever the cultures in question.
  - fennecfoxy 2y ago
    Shouldn't the members of the enclave proactively reach out themselves, then? As the host country has tried to make things more comfortable for them to start with. That seem to be the major difference between Western and non-Western countries; we're more cognisant of things like racism/being excluded and have taken steps to try to resolve it - you do not get the same in many other countries at all. It seems it's much more acceptable to be exclusionary and racist if you're non-white, sometimes.
sandworm101 2y ago
>> non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US Then to where is it native? Don't deny a culture its existence just because it isn't the first culture to arise within a particular area. Example: Mormon culture and religion is "native" the US despite certainly not being the first culture in the area.
- quadrifoliate 2y ago
  I am not the one throwing around the word "native" casually. To cite your example, Salt Lake City was founded less than 200 years ago whereas Puebloans have been living in the area for several thousands of years. You can certainly make a claim that Mormon culture is "native" to Utah, but I think at 200 v/s 5000+ you can expect that claim to be contested.
  - karpatic 2y ago
    Funny enough, the definition has nothing to do with ancestry. "Native: a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not."
    - miningape 2y ago
      Yeah, this is the exact sense in which I wrote it originally - but I sensed the screams of 1000 idiots and wrote "native" to try avoid that entire line of conversation. It seems though that my efforts went unnoticed - oh well!
lupusreal 2y ago
> Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US, Weird exclusion; Hispanic white Americans aren't native to the US either; their ancestors came from Spain.
kshGa 2y ago
The dominant culture of Google and Microsoft when they were founded was [...]. Now they have Indian CEOs and companies like Cognizant bring in H1B visas from India. There is nothing organic about that. Personally I have no experience with Indian co-workers, but I do know that Black and Hispanic people do not exclude whites at all. I have only great experiences with them.
1over137 2y ago
>Non-Hispanic white Americans are not native to the US... The word Hispanic comes from Hispania meaning "Iberian Peninsula", which, I have news for you, is in Europe. They are hardly native to the USA either.
- karpatic 2y ago
  It was an amazing statement to read. I'm glad someone else caught that
  - quadrifoliate 2y ago
    I am aware of Hispania, etc. The thing you're perhaps missing is that 'minignape began their comment with "as a white person...". That is usually a characterization used by non-Hispanic white people; hence my reply referenced non-Hispanic whites. I also wanted to highlight that they would probably be tolerant of an unfamiliar Hispanic white in-group at their company, but weren't tolerant of a South Asian one.
    - karpatic 2y ago
      Text makes communication hard. Have a good day bud.
      - quadrifoliate 2y ago
        > And that's just false. And rude. Sorry, I'm just going to have to go with the consensus of the majority of scientific study on this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United.... I'm sure you'll find some like-minded people that share your worldview and are not "rude".
- pvaldes 2y ago
  Hispanic was initially just a way to tag the white non-protestant. Currently is a loose box to include a mix of Mediterranean, African and American natives. Some of this people definitely have American natives on their family lines and other are not even related with Europeans or not much. When Hispanic mix with Irish, or English, or French or North European, they are simply called "white". A lot of Spaniards are as much "white" in their aspect as one could ask for. They are just labeled as "non white" for outdated reasons but people always chuckle about it. Is just silly.
mc32 2y ago
People born in the US are native to the US -or are you arguing for de sanguinis citizenship? Chinese and Indians do follow de sanguinis, so maybe you’re making the case?
shrubble 2y ago
Actually Whites have as much if not more claims to North America than any other group; there’s multiple times that they came to NA, including the Solutreans of about 12000 years ago: https://insider.si.edu/2012/03/ice-age-mariners-from-europe-were-the-first-people-to-reach-north-america/ https://insider.si.edu/2012/03/ice-age-mariners-from-europe-... ; plus the Viking settlement of 1021; plus the more recent fact of the USA being settled and turning wildernesses into the agricultural and technological powerhouse of today.
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  That’s funny I don’t see anything about this in the constitution Also, weren’t Solutreans brown skinned?
ImJamal 2y ago
Nobody is native to America. Humanity started (at least it is the general opinion) in Africa. Those we are referring to as native migrated to America.

robofanatic 2y ago

Thats a typical western mentality. If you do it then it is a problem but if I do the same thing it is somehow justifiable!

miningape 2y ago
> I would adapt to fit in with local customs / culture or else leave What? It's apparently white to want to fit in with the local culture now.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]