4 ms·

imo it's pretty obvious that he was Hal Finney, potentially with collaborators, and no amount of scripted emails, etc. disproves it for me

reducesuffering 2y ago
It sounds like you know Hal was running a marathon while Satoshi was emailing. Did you also know their stylometry doesn't match?
- WalterBright 2y ago
  It's not definitive proof. Stylometry was known at the time, Hal might have changed his. People have been using computer stylometry for years to rule in or out pretenders to be Shakespeare. Emails can be sent with a timer.
  - reducesuffering 2y ago
    He would've had to mimic someone else in that early crypto-sphere who does match the stylometry much much better. That person was also familiar with Hal's PoW implementation (where Hal mentions it was an implementation of this guy's concept) 3 years before the Bitcoin paper, but attempted to obfuscate that fact.
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      Why don’t you stop being coy and say who you think it is?
      - reducesuffering 2y ago
        There's a reason most people don't mention them, as some of this thread illustrates, sorry.
      - whimsicalism 2y ago
        they’re saying they think it’s adam back
        reducesuffering 2y ago
        wow Satoshi discussions are perplexing
WalterBright 2y ago
My money is on Hal, too. He was in the dorm room next to mine. I've never met an actual genius before or since. Bitcoin is just the thing he would invent. He was interviewed when he could no longer speak. He was asked if he was Satoshi. He just smiled. It's just the kind of joke Hal would play.
- nullc 2y ago
  Hey, it would be a kindness to Hal's family to not promote this theory. They've been subject to threats and extortion over it. To the extent that someone could argue that there is some public interest angle, I think that's only arguable in the case of certainty. Speculation is a dime a dozen. Even if there is a public interest angle in identifying Satoshi, I don't think that extends to idle speculation. Hal was an amazing guy and I feel privileged for the bit of interaction I had with him, refraining from a fun game of public speculation is a small cost. I'm sure if he's cryonically revived in the far future he'll appreciate the consideration. :) In general speculation like this risks creating a lot of harm for the targets, especially since brutal cryptocurrency related kidnapping and torture appears to be on the rise. It's unclear what bitcoin Satoshi might have had access too, but people who aren't Satoshi certainly don't have access to it... and the cost of security against criminal gangs hoping for a billion dollar windfall are unreasonable large even for a wealthy person and are unimaginable for someone of more ordinary means.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    I didn't think of that. I just thought that he deserved credit. It never occurred to me this might bring trouble to his family. I'll take your advice. It's also nice to know another of Hal's friends.
pa7ch 2y ago
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2206.10257v14 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2206.10257v14 This paper makes a pretty good case that the late Len Sassaman was Satoshi. Its a pretty thorough examination regardless if you think it was Len or not and doesn't come to a definitive conclusion.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  I think it is likely the 2014 message was actually Satoshi and there really is no evidence to the contrary. It rules out Len or at least Len as the exclusive creator
  - olalonde 2y ago
    Why would he do it for Dorian but not for Craig Wright, who caused immensely more harm to the community? Plus, Satoshi's email was hacked in 2014 (or earlier), and it was likely hacked multiple times[0]. [0] https://blog.bitmex.com/satoshis-2014-email-hack/ https://blog.bitmex.com/satoshis-2014-email-hack/
- paulpauper 2y ago
  some other person not listed
mike_hearn 2y ago
Reasons why it probably wasn't Hal Finney. 1. Satoshi emailed me at the same time Hal was taking part in a marathon. Yes, technically emails can be delayed, but ... why? There was no urgency in those discussions. 2. Hal preferred to write C and was still writing C up until the moment he sadly passed away. Satoshi wrote in modern(ish) C++. Note that the same problem applies for Len Sassaman and basically everyone who has been fingered as a possible Satoshi. The combination of C++, Win32 and cryptography is not very common in the cypherpunk space. 3. Hal was a professional cryptographer who worked on an encrypted messaging product (PGP). Satoshi had some fairly basic misunderstandings about cryptography, like believing that you can't use elliptic curve keys to encrypt messages, and referenced having to do research to understand the cryptography he needed. Why would Hal pretend to be a newbie at cryptography, up to and including not having features Satoshi said he wanted? 4. Hal did try to create digital cash already, but tried to build it on trusted computing hardware. He had a long term interest in that approach, as did I, and his last project before his death was one I suggested related to this tech. In fact there are emails between me and Hal in list archives pre-Bitcoin where we swap notes on Intel LaGrande. If Hal had been Satoshi it seems likely that Satoshi would have at least commented on the ways TC could be used at some point, but Satoshi never showed any awareness the tech exists. 6. If you're trying to be anonymous, why would you immediately and pointlessly reveal your identity by messaging yourself? 7. He denied that he was Satoshi.
- nullc 2y ago
  Hi Mike. Please provide the complete enclosing headers of the email in question, along with their DKIM signature. The header trace will help dispel any allegations that the messages were delayed for technical reasons or were otherwise corrupted.
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Satoshi's email provider didn't use DKIM. Even if they had the keys would have long since been rotated. That's OK though - you're the only one insinuating that I faked the emails, nobody else ever has. You won't come out and say it directly of course, because if you had to spell out this theory explicitly it would sound obviously idiotic.

reducesuffering 2y ago

It sounds like you know Hal was running a marathon while Satoshi was emailing. Did you also know their stylometry doesn't match?

WalterBright 2y ago
It's not definitive proof. Stylometry was known at the time, Hal might have changed his. People have been using computer stylometry for years to rule in or out pretenders to be Shakespeare. Emails can be sent with a timer.
- reducesuffering 2y ago
  He would've had to mimic someone else in that early crypto-sphere who does match the stylometry much much better. That person was also familiar with Hal's PoW implementation (where Hal mentions it was an implementation of this guy's concept) 3 years before the Bitcoin paper, but attempted to obfuscate that fact.
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    Why don’t you stop being coy and say who you think it is?
    - reducesuffering 2y ago
      There's a reason most people don't mention them, as some of this thread illustrates, sorry.
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      they’re saying they think it’s adam back
      - reducesuffering 2y ago
        wow Satoshi discussions are perplexing

WalterBright 2y ago

My money is on Hal, too. He was in the dorm room next to mine. I've never met an actual genius before or since. Bitcoin is just the thing he would invent. He was interviewed when he could no longer speak. He was asked if he was Satoshi. He just smiled. It's just the kind of joke Hal would play.

nullc 2y ago
Hey, it would be a kindness to Hal's family to not promote this theory. They've been subject to threats and extortion over it. To the extent that someone could argue that there is some public interest angle, I think that's only arguable in the case of certainty. Speculation is a dime a dozen. Even if there is a public interest angle in identifying Satoshi, I don't think that extends to idle speculation. Hal was an amazing guy and I feel privileged for the bit of interaction I had with him, refraining from a fun game of public speculation is a small cost. I'm sure if he's cryonically revived in the far future he'll appreciate the consideration. :) In general speculation like this risks creating a lot of harm for the targets, especially since brutal cryptocurrency related kidnapping and torture appears to be on the rise. It's unclear what bitcoin Satoshi might have had access too, but people who aren't Satoshi certainly don't have access to it... and the cost of security against criminal gangs hoping for a billion dollar windfall are unreasonable large even for a wealthy person and are unimaginable for someone of more ordinary means.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  I didn't think of that. I just thought that he deserved credit. It never occurred to me this might bring trouble to his family. I'll take your advice. It's also nice to know another of Hal's friends.

pa7ch 2y ago

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2206.10257v14 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2206.10257v14 This paper makes a pretty good case that the late Len Sassaman was Satoshi. Its a pretty thorough examination regardless if you think it was Len or not and doesn't come to a definitive conclusion.

whimsicalism 2y ago
I think it is likely the 2014 message was actually Satoshi and there really is no evidence to the contrary. It rules out Len or at least Len as the exclusive creator
- olalonde 2y ago
  Why would he do it for Dorian but not for Craig Wright, who caused immensely more harm to the community? Plus, Satoshi's email was hacked in 2014 (or earlier), and it was likely hacked multiple times[0]. [0] https://blog.bitmex.com/satoshis-2014-email-hack/ https://blog.bitmex.com/satoshis-2014-email-hack/
paulpauper 2y ago
some other person not listed

mike_hearn 2y ago

Reasons why it probably wasn't Hal Finney. 1. Satoshi emailed me at the same time Hal was taking part in a marathon. Yes, technically emails can be delayed, but ... why? There was no urgency in those discussions. 2. Hal preferred to write C and was still writing C up until the moment he sadly passed away. Satoshi wrote in modern(ish) C++. Note that the same problem applies for Len Sassaman and basically everyone who has been fingered as a possible Satoshi. The combination of C++, Win32 and cryptography is not very common in the cypherpunk space. 3. Hal was a professional cryptographer who worked on an encrypted messaging product (PGP). Satoshi had some fairly basic misunderstandings about cryptography, like believing that you can't use elliptic curve keys to encrypt messages, and referenced having to do research to understand the cryptography he needed. Why would Hal pretend to be a newbie at cryptography, up to and including not having features Satoshi said he wanted? 4. Hal did try to create digital cash already, but tried to build it on trusted computing hardware. He had a long term interest in that approach, as did I, and his last project before his death was one I suggested related to this tech. In fact there are emails between me and Hal in list archives pre-Bitcoin where we swap notes on Intel LaGrande. If Hal had been Satoshi it seems likely that Satoshi would have at least commented on the ways TC could be used at some point, but Satoshi never showed any awareness the tech exists. 6. If you're trying to be anonymous, why would you immediately and pointlessly reveal your identity by messaging yourself? 7. He denied that he was Satoshi.

nullc 2y ago
Hi Mike. Please provide the complete enclosing headers of the email in question, along with their DKIM signature. The header trace will help dispel any allegations that the messages were delayed for technical reasons or were otherwise corrupted.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  Satoshi's email provider didn't use DKIM. Even if they had the keys would have long since been rotated. That's OK though - you're the only one insinuating that I faked the emails, nobody else ever has. You won't come out and say it directly of course, because if you had to spell out this theory explicitly it would sound obviously idiotic.