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It's not terribly surprising that a former Nazi guard would be able to immigrate to the US and integrate with American society. Nazism and its adjacent movemen

by danans 2y ago

It's not terribly surprising that a former Nazi guard would be able to immigrate to the US and integrate with American society. Nazism and its adjacent movements and organizations like the KKK have been a persistent background feature of the US cultural landscape for a long time [1]. The post Civil-war American racism/segregation model (AKA Jim Crow) was seen by the Nazis as a model for their own society. There were and still are many who agree with many aspects of the ideology, especially if they aren't specifically associated with the term "Nazi". WW2 may have caused overtly Nazi-associated movements to fall out of mainstream regard, but as examples like the individual in the article demonstrate, it wasn't that hard for him to hide his level of involvement in the Nazi party, especially in suburban America, which was itself born of America's own internal racist convulsion. Those who grew up in American suburbs during that time period are aware of the persistent background racism and anti-Semitism they harbored. This was a society primed to give a well-spoken and hard working white immigrant a huge benefit of the doubt, as it demonstrably did. In the end, it seems like he was legally deported based on the law that no Nazi camp guards can immigrate to the US, not because the society itself hadn't found a comfortable place for him. 1. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/nazi-town-usa/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/nazi-town-...

tptacek 2y ago
Nah. He didn't have to hide anything. He was asked once, when he immigrated, if he'd been a member of the SS (we explicitly disallow immigration by SS members), and he lied then. He was never really asked again, until 1981, and then was more or less immediately deported. Over his 30 odd years working here, there wasn't ever any concerted effort to protect him, until the very end.
- danans 2y ago
  > He was never really asked again, until 1981, and then was more or less immediately deported. That's my point - it was relatively easy for someone like him not to raise suspicion in 1950s American society, because the society was very open to accepting and integrating someone like him. Like a "Don't ask, don't tell" for Nazis. It finally took a government commission nearly 30 years to find out the truth about his past and deport him. Contrast this with the very active threats we hear today from some of the loudest political voices to deport legal migrants to the US from Haiti. Both the post-war German migrants of the 1950s and the legal Haitian migrants of today are escaping war and violence, working at manual labor jobs that Americans won't take, and economically revitalizing previously declining communities by starting small businesses, yet the tone toward the Haitians today is starkly different than it was for the Germans.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I'm pushing back on the idea that Oak Park was open to Nazis in the 1950s and 60s. It was not. What there was was a rapid influx of Germans after the war, and not even 1/4th the knowledge we have today about the Holocaust and Germany's conduct during the war. The fact is: people in Oak Park had the (reasonable!) assumption that if you were allowed to immigrate into the US, you were not a war criminal. Had Kulle been openly a Nazi during his time here, things would have gone very differently. But it basically never came up until the very end, and, when it did, people were extremely squicked out about it. For whatever it's worth: I'm guessing our politics are very similar. Despite the very grim consequences for some of the people we deported, I think we generally made the right decision to do so. And I have no doubt that at every point from 1948 through 2024 that a Haitian immigrant would have had a far different experience in Chicagoland than a German one.
    - danans 2y ago
      > For whatever it's worth: I'm guessing our politics are very similar. I intuited that, which is a reason why I think this is a worthwhile debate vs debating with someone who doesn't have similar basic values about our shared humanity. Thanks for your thoughtful responses! > I'm pushing back on the idea that Oak Park was open to Nazis in the 1950s and 60s. It was not. What there was was a rapid influx of Germans after the war, and not even 1/4th the knowledge we have today about the Holocaust and Germany's conduct during the war. The fact is: people in Oak Park had the (reasonable!) assumption that if you were allowed to immigrate into the US, you were not a war criminal. Clearly, once it's known that someone is a Nazi war criminal nobody wants them, in no small part because no community wants to be associated with the Nazis in particular, but yes also because Nazism is deplorable, and it is the law that Nazi war criminals must be deported. I can't look into the hearts of people of 1950-1980s Oak Park to know what they really thought or felt. I can't demonstrate what motivated them to accept migrants whether goodwill, humanity or any other number of factors. However, arguably WW2 caused people to be repulsed by the word Nazi, their actions, and their associated imagery, more than the nuances of the ideology itself. That incongruity persists, and there is still widespread ignorance about the connections - both explicit and thematic - between Nazi ideology and America's own history of racism, as recent high profile events in politics and society have demonstrated. > And I have no doubt that at every point from 1948 through 2024 that a Haitian immigrant would have had a far different experience in Chicagoland than a German one. That's my main point. It is easier for a person like this to pass in the specific context of American white suburban society if nothing else is known about them, vs someone who comes from a different racial and ethnic group. Conversely, it is not a coincidence that the false claims about Haitian migrants in Ohio were started by a local Neo-Nazi group. Overall, I feel Oak Park should be commended for how open and welcoming it was to this person, while not knowing his true history. The same charity ought to be extended to anyone fleeing strife and willing to work hard, contribute, and follow the law. (and PS I know I'm preaching to the choir of you).
zer8k 2y ago
[flagged]

by danans 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

Nah. He didn't have to hide anything. He was asked once, when he immigrated, if he'd been a member of the SS (we explicitly disallow immigration by SS members), and he lied then. He was never really asked again, until 1981, and then was more or less immediately deported. Over his 30 odd years working here, there wasn't ever any concerted effort to protect him, until the very end.

danans 2y ago
> He was never really asked again, until 1981, and then was more or less immediately deported. That's my point - it was relatively easy for someone like him not to raise suspicion in 1950s American society, because the society was very open to accepting and integrating someone like him. Like a "Don't ask, don't tell" for Nazis. It finally took a government commission nearly 30 years to find out the truth about his past and deport him. Contrast this with the very active threats we hear today from some of the loudest political voices to deport legal migrants to the US from Haiti. Both the post-war German migrants of the 1950s and the legal Haitian migrants of today are escaping war and violence, working at manual labor jobs that Americans won't take, and economically revitalizing previously declining communities by starting small businesses, yet the tone toward the Haitians today is starkly different than it was for the Germans.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I'm pushing back on the idea that Oak Park was open to Nazis in the 1950s and 60s. It was not. What there was was a rapid influx of Germans after the war, and not even 1/4th the knowledge we have today about the Holocaust and Germany's conduct during the war. The fact is: people in Oak Park had the (reasonable!) assumption that if you were allowed to immigrate into the US, you were not a war criminal. Had Kulle been openly a Nazi during his time here, things would have gone very differently. But it basically never came up until the very end, and, when it did, people were extremely squicked out about it. For whatever it's worth: I'm guessing our politics are very similar. Despite the very grim consequences for some of the people we deported, I think we generally made the right decision to do so. And I have no doubt that at every point from 1948 through 2024 that a Haitian immigrant would have had a far different experience in Chicagoland than a German one.
  - danans 2y ago
    > For whatever it's worth: I'm guessing our politics are very similar. I intuited that, which is a reason why I think this is a worthwhile debate vs debating with someone who doesn't have similar basic values about our shared humanity. Thanks for your thoughtful responses! > I'm pushing back on the idea that Oak Park was open to Nazis in the 1950s and 60s. It was not. What there was was a rapid influx of Germans after the war, and not even 1/4th the knowledge we have today about the Holocaust and Germany's conduct during the war. The fact is: people in Oak Park had the (reasonable!) assumption that if you were allowed to immigrate into the US, you were not a war criminal. Clearly, once it's known that someone is a Nazi war criminal nobody wants them, in no small part because no community wants to be associated with the Nazis in particular, but yes also because Nazism is deplorable, and it is the law that Nazi war criminals must be deported. I can't look into the hearts of people of 1950-1980s Oak Park to know what they really thought or felt. I can't demonstrate what motivated them to accept migrants whether goodwill, humanity or any other number of factors. However, arguably WW2 caused people to be repulsed by the word Nazi, their actions, and their associated imagery, more than the nuances of the ideology itself. That incongruity persists, and there is still widespread ignorance about the connections - both explicit and thematic - between Nazi ideology and America's own history of racism, as recent high profile events in politics and society have demonstrated. > And I have no doubt that at every point from 1948 through 2024 that a Haitian immigrant would have had a far different experience in Chicagoland than a German one. That's my main point. It is easier for a person like this to pass in the specific context of American white suburban society if nothing else is known about them, vs someone who comes from a different racial and ethnic group. Conversely, it is not a coincidence that the false claims about Haitian migrants in Ohio were started by a local Neo-Nazi group. Overall, I feel Oak Park should be commended for how open and welcoming it was to this person, while not knowing his true history. The same charity ought to be extended to anyone fleeing strife and willing to work hard, contribute, and follow the law. (and PS I know I'm preaching to the choir of you).

zer8k 2y ago

[flagged]