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The treaty, signed by Ukraine: https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/995_098#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/995_098#Text Ukrainian law about joining t

The treaty, signed by Ukraine: https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/995_098#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/995_098#Text Ukrainian law about joining the treaty: https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/248/94-%D0%B2%D1%80#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/248/94-%D0%B2%D1%80#Text

ceejayoz 2y ago
OK, that one is the original 1968 treaty they acceded to after leavin the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferation_of_Nuclear_Weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferatio.... As with any treaty, it can be broken/withdrawn from. The treaty does not establish a right/recourse to a nuclear weapons program to NPT members in Ukraine's scenario. Ukraine just, when agreeing to it, said they'd leave if they had to. They would be non-compliant with the treaty, as North Korea was/is. They would be similarly sanctioned for it. The Budapest Memorandom was a separate agreement, predicated on acceptance of the NPT. Similarly, nothing in it says "you can have a nuclear weapons program in scenario x".
- oneshtein 2y ago
  Ukraine can join NPT back in exchange for safety assurances. No need for sanctions.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    If Ukraine started a nuclear weapons program, they would be in violation of the NPT treaty. Sanctions and loss of Western support would be virtually guaranteed.
    - oneshtein 2y ago
      Ukraine is not bound by NPT because we are attacked by nuclear country. See text of NPT signed by Ukraine. Moreover, Ukraine is post-nuclear country. We had nuclear weapons and we know how to produce more.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        But you understand this part, right? Sanctions and loss of Western support would be virtually guaranteed. Talk about biting the hand that feeds. Seriously, this whole nuclear idea you're onto, while no doubt well-intentioned, is infinitely untenable for a whole bunch of plainly obvious reasons.
        oneshtein 2y ago
        Ukraine may claim damages. Nuclear countries promised security assurances, then broke them. We have $1T in damages from war. > Sanctions and loss of Western support would be virtually guaranteed. This will be a good case to support the claims. Moreover, this support will be unnecessary for a nuclear country, because war will be ended very fast.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Except it's just not going to happen. I don't believe in the stupid propaganda (that gets repeated here almost every week) that Ukraine was manipulated into this war, by Boris or anyone else. Ukraine is entirely independent and makes its own choices. But the simple fact is, it doesn't have unlimited control over its destiny in this particular regard, and pretending otherwise won't change that fact. It is entirely dependent on Western help at this point -- its benefactors are 1000 percent against any further nuclear proliferation, and are infinitely more concerned about that issue than they are about the borders of Ukraine, or Ukraine's survival in any other sense. They have no interest in the inevitable and far wider confrontation with Russia that would ensue from such recklessness -- and they just aren't going to allow it.
        oneshtein 2y ago
        Yep, high dependency on Western help is a problem, which must be solved first.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        Ukraine is bound by the NPT until they exit it. That hasn’t happened so far. Exiting it would lead to consequences from their allies, which they can’t afford.

ceejayoz 2y ago

OK, that one is the original 1968 treaty they acceded to after leavin the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferation_of_Nuclear_Weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferatio.... As with any treaty, it can be broken/withdrawn from. The treaty does not establish a right/recourse to a nuclear weapons program to NPT members in Ukraine's scenario. Ukraine just, when agreeing to it, said they'd leave if they had to. They would be non-compliant with the treaty, as North Korea was/is. They would be similarly sanctioned for it. The Budapest Memorandom was a separate agreement, predicated on acceptance of the NPT. Similarly, nothing in it says "you can have a nuclear weapons program in scenario x".

oneshtein 2y ago
Ukraine can join NPT back in exchange for safety assurances. No need for sanctions.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  If Ukraine started a nuclear weapons program, they would be in violation of the NPT treaty. Sanctions and loss of Western support would be virtually guaranteed.
  - oneshtein 2y ago
    Ukraine is not bound by NPT because we are attacked by nuclear country. See text of NPT signed by Ukraine. Moreover, Ukraine is post-nuclear country. We had nuclear weapons and we know how to produce more.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      But you understand this part, right? Sanctions and loss of Western support would be virtually guaranteed. Talk about biting the hand that feeds. Seriously, this whole nuclear idea you're onto, while no doubt well-intentioned, is infinitely untenable for a whole bunch of plainly obvious reasons.
      - oneshtein 2y ago
        Ukraine may claim damages. Nuclear countries promised security assurances, then broke them. We have $1T in damages from war. > Sanctions and loss of Western support would be virtually guaranteed. This will be a good case to support the claims. Moreover, this support will be unnecessary for a nuclear country, because war will be ended very fast.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Except it's just not going to happen. I don't believe in the stupid propaganda (that gets repeated here almost every week) that Ukraine was manipulated into this war, by Boris or anyone else. Ukraine is entirely independent and makes its own choices. But the simple fact is, it doesn't have unlimited control over its destiny in this particular regard, and pretending otherwise won't change that fact. It is entirely dependent on Western help at this point -- its benefactors are 1000 percent against any further nuclear proliferation, and are infinitely more concerned about that issue than they are about the borders of Ukraine, or Ukraine's survival in any other sense. They have no interest in the inevitable and far wider confrontation with Russia that would ensue from such recklessness -- and they just aren't going to allow it.
        oneshtein 2y ago
        Yep, high dependency on Western help is a problem, which must be solved first.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      Ukraine is bound by the NPT until they exit it. That hasn’t happened so far. Exiting it would lead to consequences from their allies, which they can’t afford.