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> the video of Daggett threatening to “cripple” the entire economy, or the fact that Daggett is alleged to have connections to organized crime. Half of our eco

> the video of Daggett threatening to “cripple” the entire economy, or the fact that Daggett is alleged to have connections to organized crime. Half of our economy is built around making as many people replaceable as possible so that their wages can be driven into the ground. Pearl clutching about people resisting downward social mobility by any means necessary is cringe. This put me off to the rest of the article.

SR2Z 2y ago
Most port workers don't even work. They can have a little downward mobility, they've earned it.
- wasteduniverse 2y ago
  [dead]
- wormlord 2y ago
  If you value people solely by their economic output then I am just going to immediately discard your opinion.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Really shows thr empathy of the world once a community talks about the other-group. That Sinclair quote rings true here.
  - SR2Z 2y ago
    This has nothing to do with their value as human beings and everything to do with how they are blocking automation to keep shipping expensive.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  Where is this same energy for trust fund kids?
  - consteval 2y ago
    Port workers are physical laborers and therefore in our popular culture are perceived as stupid. Humans of lesser value. This inherent bias exists in all of us, whether we admit it or not. That's why we view knowledge workers getting paid more than they deserve in a MUCH different light than physical laborers getting paid more than they deserve.
    - hackable_sand 2y ago
      Bro you need help
      - consteval 2y ago
        I'm speaking to cultural biases in the west, I'm not speaking from a personal perspective. Physical laborers are percieved as humans of lesser value, and that's why the bar or standard for what is mistreatment of them is much higher. We do the same with, for example, prisoners. They are humans of lesser value, so the standard for mistreatment is really high. We can force them to work, physically hurt them, starve them a bit, and the average person doesn't care. We have to do something really bad for people to start caring. That's why your office worker can take a 15-minute walk and nobody bats an eye. But the grocery store cashier wants to sit down, and millions of people lose their mind.
        hackable_sand 2y ago
        You speak your truth. Don't speak for me. Rude as fuck.
        consteval 2y ago
        I don't think you understand what culture means. When I'm saying it's the culture of the west to put down physical laborers, that doesn't mean I think YOU PERSONALLY do that. I really didn't think this is the type of thing that needed to be explained on hackernews of all places, but here we are. Try to keep up.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Would you say the same thing about software engineers? Because it's likely just as true if not more so.
- sensanaty 2y ago
  Your average dockworker is infinitely more valuable than trust fund nepo babies that sit on their ass all day playing with investor money opening up yet another useless AI startup that's going to crash within a year.
  - SR2Z 2y ago
    Some dock workers literally get paid for hours not worked. This is a hard statement for me to agree with.
FredPret 2y ago
> Half of our economy is built around making as many people replaceable as possible so that their wages can be driven into the ground Amusingly, this is both true and has the exact opposite effect of what you imply here. The data does not show a downward spiral of individual wages and wealth, and in fact shows quite the opposite. And this is driven by real economic growth, which is driven by tech, which is frequently deployed in the hopes of automating away some work. However, just from a first-principles point of view, more automation is better. We can't do things unintelligently just because that means more work. The goal is more wealth, not more work.
- wormlord 2y ago
  > The data does not show a downward spiral of individual wages and wealth Not sure what data you are using. All data I have seen from the Federal Reserve and others show stagnant/negative wages accounting for inflation (since the 1970s). Not to mention the fact that key factors of social mobility like housing and education have outpaced wage growth drastically. > However, just from a first-principles point of view, more automation is better. I never said it wasn't. Automation is inevitable. However I am not going to complain about people smashing the machines meant to replace them. That is the only logical course of action for them, unless the government steps in with a free retraining program or someone else has unionized jobs lined up for them. My point is that the author takes capital owners acting in their own naked self-interest for granted, and whines about workers/union leaders doing the same. Either be consistent or admit that you have disdain for the working class.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    I completely agree that in a free market, the longshoremen are entitled to throwing whatever tantrum they like. Is that actually in their best interest? Opinions differ. By the way, here are some examples of what I mean: Real disposable income is up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 Real median personal income is up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

SR2Z 2y ago

Most port workers don't even work. They can have a little downward mobility, they've earned it.

wasteduniverse 2y ago
[dead]
wormlord 2y ago
If you value people solely by their economic output then I am just going to immediately discard your opinion.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Really shows thr empathy of the world once a community talks about the other-group. That Sinclair quote rings true here.
- SR2Z 2y ago
  This has nothing to do with their value as human beings and everything to do with how they are blocking automation to keep shipping expensive.
snapcaster 2y ago
Where is this same energy for trust fund kids?
- consteval 2y ago
  Port workers are physical laborers and therefore in our popular culture are perceived as stupid. Humans of lesser value. This inherent bias exists in all of us, whether we admit it or not. That's why we view knowledge workers getting paid more than they deserve in a MUCH different light than physical laborers getting paid more than they deserve.
  - hackable_sand 2y ago
    Bro you need help
    - consteval 2y ago
      I'm speaking to cultural biases in the west, I'm not speaking from a personal perspective. Physical laborers are percieved as humans of lesser value, and that's why the bar or standard for what is mistreatment of them is much higher. We do the same with, for example, prisoners. They are humans of lesser value, so the standard for mistreatment is really high. We can force them to work, physically hurt them, starve them a bit, and the average person doesn't care. We have to do something really bad for people to start caring. That's why your office worker can take a 15-minute walk and nobody bats an eye. But the grocery store cashier wants to sit down, and millions of people lose their mind.
      - hackable_sand 2y ago
        You speak your truth. Don't speak for me. Rude as fuck.
        consteval 2y ago
        I don't think you understand what culture means. When I'm saying it's the culture of the west to put down physical laborers, that doesn't mean I think YOU PERSONALLY do that. I really didn't think this is the type of thing that needed to be explained on hackernews of all places, but here we are. Try to keep up.
SoftTalker 2y ago
Would you say the same thing about software engineers? Because it's likely just as true if not more so.
sensanaty 2y ago
Your average dockworker is infinitely more valuable than trust fund nepo babies that sit on their ass all day playing with investor money opening up yet another useless AI startup that's going to crash within a year.
- SR2Z 2y ago
  Some dock workers literally get paid for hours not worked. This is a hard statement for me to agree with.

FredPret 2y ago

> Half of our economy is built around making as many people replaceable as possible so that their wages can be driven into the ground Amusingly, this is both true and has the exact opposite effect of what you imply here. The data does not show a downward spiral of individual wages and wealth, and in fact shows quite the opposite. And this is driven by real economic growth, which is driven by tech, which is frequently deployed in the hopes of automating away some work. However, just from a first-principles point of view, more automation is better. We can't do things unintelligently just because that means more work. The goal is more wealth, not more work.

wormlord 2y ago
> The data does not show a downward spiral of individual wages and wealth Not sure what data you are using. All data I have seen from the Federal Reserve and others show stagnant/negative wages accounting for inflation (since the 1970s). Not to mention the fact that key factors of social mobility like housing and education have outpaced wage growth drastically. > However, just from a first-principles point of view, more automation is better. I never said it wasn't. Automation is inevitable. However I am not going to complain about people smashing the machines meant to replace them. That is the only logical course of action for them, unless the government steps in with a free retraining program or someone else has unionized jobs lined up for them. My point is that the author takes capital owners acting in their own naked self-interest for granted, and whines about workers/union leaders doing the same. Either be consistent or admit that you have disdain for the working class.
- FredPret 2y ago
  I completely agree that in a free market, the longshoremen are entitled to throwing whatever tantrum they like. Is that actually in their best interest? Opinions differ. By the way, here are some examples of what I mean: Real disposable income is up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 Real median personal income is up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N