4 ms·

Disclaimer: I'm a Rails programmer for work and hobby. Interested in learning something that isn't PHP to code your web applications in? Ok. You have a ton of

by xyzzyb 14y ago

Disclaimer: I'm a Rails programmer for work and hobby. Interested in learning something that isn't PHP to code your web applications in? Ok. You have a ton of options and this is a very exciting time to be a web developer. Do you want to lean towards stability and proven concepts and work within a full application structure? Look at Django and Rails. Do you want to serve up responses from a simple script without a lot of extra pieces? Look at Sinatra and Flask. Do you want to get in on the cutting edge and don't mind forging some of the path yourself? Look at Node.js and Meteor. Got a high level decision made? Sweet. Now compare the primary languages between your choices (forget the framework for now). After a few minutes looking at each, which reads better to you? Feel free to go on gut instinct here: there are no wrong choices. You've now made a choice for your next learning target. Now: don't spend years. Don't worry about knowing everything about the framework and the language. Google for "X tutorial" and follow the first link that looks reasonable and current. Do that tutorial. Now you have some bearings within the framework and have some idea of how it thinks. Now. Pick something you want to build (a todo list is popular now, it used to be a blog or a wiki). Build it. You will make mistakes. You will be confused. Google for answers (if you're in Node.js or Meteor you will have trouble here) or hack until you get something working. Throw what you built up on github and ask others to check it out. Build something else. Repeat. If you are already a decent programmer with a good grasp of the web and how HTTP works: you will pick up any of these frameworks well enough to work in it in a month or so. In six months you'll be well advanced: especially if there are good books available for the framework/language you are working in. Have fun!

calinet6 14y ago
Do you want to provide an application that anyone can run and easily deploy on their own server with as little configuration as possible? Oh. I hate PHP as much as anyone (of course), but that's what it does.
- __alexs 14y ago
  So Java then?
  - calinet6 14y ago
    I've never seen a web host include java, and no shared host has enough resources to support the JVM in the first place. It's a similar problem as Ruby and Python, believe it or not.
    - LiveTheDream 14y ago
      Heroku will host JVM-based webapps for you. They have Scala and Clojure support.
    - bluesnowmonkey 14y ago
      Actually, the GP was talking about running on your own server. Ruby, Python, Java, PHP, they're all close enough in terms of setup time that it need not factor into the decision. Or you can run any of them on dotCloud, EC2, Rackspace, lots of places. Deployability just isn't a differentiator nowadays.
      - calinet6 14y ago
        No, it isn't—but if you knew how to deploy any of that, you probably wouldn't consider PHP. 90% of people just run a web site on a hosting server. Granted it's getting less and less common with the advent of the centralized service-based web, but still, that's the source of success.
    - __alexs 14y ago
      Is PHP really more memory efficient than the competition? I know it scores better on the computer benchmark game but the non-existent concurrency support and general leakyness of most the extensions (unless they've fixed that these days?) seems like the difference could actually be a lot narrower in practice.
      - calinet6 14y ago
        No, that part still might be bad. The advantage it has is that you can run a ton of hosted sites on one mod_php apache server. With Rails, for example, you have to run an environment. Same with many Python apps, or Java, etc. So it has the memory advantage of being able to run multiple sites on one environment. Not that big a deal if you're doing any serious deployment, but a big deal for its ubiquitous nature.
- bmj 14y ago
  I wonder if the better course of action would be to lobby the major hosting providers to include Ruby and/or Python with their base plans. Really, isn't that one thing that keeps PHP chugging along? In the consulting work I've done, my clients already have hosting plans for their website, so if I'm adding a sub-app, or even a new app, trying to convince them (and their IT staff) to manage multiple hosts/plans/etc is off the table.
  - tlack 14y ago
    I think the problem is that the virtual hosting model doesn't work well for platforms where every site is a running app instance. Who starts the processes? How do you restart them when the code changes (some platforms don't do this)? Who assigns port numbers? etc etc etc.. With PHP, whose execution model was kind of built with this in mind, this works out of the box very easily.
- lucian1900 14y ago
  It's pretty easy to do so with Python, at least. I don't know about Ruby. The only advantage PHP has in terms of deployment is that there are more cheap, crappy shared hosts that support it.
- xyzzyb 14y ago
  That's the thing right? With PHP you need a server or you can't do anything. With Django, Sinatra, Rails, Flask, (Node?, Meteor?) you have all that for development as part of the application. To deploy you just push to a free heroku instance and you are fine until you get big. Much, much easier than setting up your own Apache+PHP. And much, much cheaper than buying hosting.
  - hyuuu 14y ago
    php ships with server. Though frankly everyone would use XAMPP or WAMP or MAMP, for their development to mimic the production environment closer. It costs 3 bucks for host gator, hmm maybe 4, but heroku is very opinionated on how you should structure your project.
  - Isofarro 14y ago
    So many people point to Heroku as the comparator to the wide availability of PHP. Unfortunately Heroku is down right now. The wide-availability of choice, it's ubiquity, is why many PHP sites are still running right now - they are not reliant on a single point of failure. There are many thousands of hosts, spread across the world, offering Cpanel accounts so I'm not tied down to the meteorological events in North Virginia. If an act of God happens in Michigan right now, I can switch my site very quickly from there to a freshly minted Cpanel accout in California (thanks regular Cpanel backups!), or London or Manchester (Possibly not Newcastle right now, though). I'm really spoilt for choice here. What are the alternatives to Heroku that don't have the same failing that are running right now that are comparable in getting an app up and running equivalent to PHP time?
wvenable 14y ago
> Interested in learning something that isn't PHP to code your web applications in? That's the problem. I'm in the same boat as Marco with pretty much the same reasoning. I'm not interesting in learning something -- I'm interesting in starting and completing my next project as quickly, cheaply, and well designed as possible. I'm willing to accept that, all things being equal, a better design is possible in Python or Ruby. But for that to be true, I need to know Python or Ruby. I need to know the framework I'm working on. I can certainly put the time into learning, the time into heading down the wrong path in both design and technology for a project (and that will happen), perhaps rewrite a few times. But with only so many hours in the day (less than I really need), it's not much of an option.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I have a lot of sympathy for that. But the end of that road is the 50-year-old programmer looking forward to spending the next 15 years doing mind-numbing maintenance on vital but terrible corporate code while hoping they don't get laid off. That's what happened to a lot of COBOL programmers, for example. Software development is a Red Queen field [1]. If you don't take the time to keep up, you will eventually get left behind. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_Hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_Hypothesis
evanmoran 14y ago
+1, this is fantastic advice. I found that when I stopped reading about languages and instead just opened tutorial and _tried_ them my learning rate improved drastically. Pick a tutorial and go.

by xyzzyb 14y ago

calinet6 14y ago

Do you want to provide an application that anyone can run and easily deploy on their own server with as little configuration as possible? Oh. I hate PHP as much as anyone (of course), but that's what it does.

__alexs 14y ago
So Java then?
- calinet6 14y ago
  I've never seen a web host include java, and no shared host has enough resources to support the JVM in the first place. It's a similar problem as Ruby and Python, believe it or not.
  - LiveTheDream 14y ago
    Heroku will host JVM-based webapps for you. They have Scala and Clojure support.
  - bluesnowmonkey 14y ago
    Actually, the GP was talking about running on your own server. Ruby, Python, Java, PHP, they're all close enough in terms of setup time that it need not factor into the decision. Or you can run any of them on dotCloud, EC2, Rackspace, lots of places. Deployability just isn't a differentiator nowadays.
    - calinet6 14y ago
      No, it isn't—but if you knew how to deploy any of that, you probably wouldn't consider PHP. 90% of people just run a web site on a hosting server. Granted it's getting less and less common with the advent of the centralized service-based web, but still, that's the source of success.
  - __alexs 14y ago
    Is PHP really more memory efficient than the competition? I know it scores better on the computer benchmark game but the non-existent concurrency support and general leakyness of most the extensions (unless they've fixed that these days?) seems like the difference could actually be a lot narrower in practice.
    - calinet6 14y ago
      No, that part still might be bad. The advantage it has is that you can run a ton of hosted sites on one mod_php apache server. With Rails, for example, you have to run an environment. Same with many Python apps, or Java, etc. So it has the memory advantage of being able to run multiple sites on one environment. Not that big a deal if you're doing any serious deployment, but a big deal for its ubiquitous nature.
bmj 14y ago
I wonder if the better course of action would be to lobby the major hosting providers to include Ruby and/or Python with their base plans. Really, isn't that one thing that keeps PHP chugging along? In the consulting work I've done, my clients already have hosting plans for their website, so if I'm adding a sub-app, or even a new app, trying to convince them (and their IT staff) to manage multiple hosts/plans/etc is off the table.
- tlack 14y ago
  I think the problem is that the virtual hosting model doesn't work well for platforms where every site is a running app instance. Who starts the processes? How do you restart them when the code changes (some platforms don't do this)? Who assigns port numbers? etc etc etc.. With PHP, whose execution model was kind of built with this in mind, this works out of the box very easily.
lucian1900 14y ago
It's pretty easy to do so with Python, at least. I don't know about Ruby. The only advantage PHP has in terms of deployment is that there are more cheap, crappy shared hosts that support it.
xyzzyb 14y ago
That's the thing right? With PHP you need a server or you can't do anything. With Django, Sinatra, Rails, Flask, (Node?, Meteor?) you have all that for development as part of the application. To deploy you just push to a free heroku instance and you are fine until you get big. Much, much easier than setting up your own Apache+PHP. And much, much cheaper than buying hosting.
- hyuuu 14y ago
  php ships with server. Though frankly everyone would use XAMPP or WAMP or MAMP, for their development to mimic the production environment closer. It costs 3 bucks for host gator, hmm maybe 4, but heroku is very opinionated on how you should structure your project.
- Isofarro 14y ago
  So many people point to Heroku as the comparator to the wide availability of PHP. Unfortunately Heroku is down right now. The wide-availability of choice, it's ubiquity, is why many PHP sites are still running right now - they are not reliant on a single point of failure. There are many thousands of hosts, spread across the world, offering Cpanel accounts so I'm not tied down to the meteorological events in North Virginia. If an act of God happens in Michigan right now, I can switch my site very quickly from there to a freshly minted Cpanel accout in California (thanks regular Cpanel backups!), or London or Manchester (Possibly not Newcastle right now, though). I'm really spoilt for choice here. What are the alternatives to Heroku that don't have the same failing that are running right now that are comparable in getting an app up and running equivalent to PHP time?

wvenable 14y ago

> Interested in learning something that isn't PHP to code your web applications in? That's the problem. I'm in the same boat as Marco with pretty much the same reasoning. I'm not interesting in learning something -- I'm interesting in starting and completing my next project as quickly, cheaply, and well designed as possible. I'm willing to accept that, all things being equal, a better design is possible in Python or Ruby. But for that to be true, I need to know Python or Ruby. I need to know the framework I'm working on. I can certainly put the time into learning, the time into heading down the wrong path in both design and technology for a project (and that will happen), perhaps rewrite a few times. But with only so many hours in the day (less than I really need), it's not much of an option.

wpietri 14y ago
I have a lot of sympathy for that. But the end of that road is the 50-year-old programmer looking forward to spending the next 15 years doing mind-numbing maintenance on vital but terrible corporate code while hoping they don't get laid off. That's what happened to a lot of COBOL programmers, for example. Software development is a Red Queen field [1]. If you don't take the time to keep up, you will eventually get left behind. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_Hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_Hypothesis

evanmoran 14y ago

+1, this is fantastic advice. I found that when I stopped reading about languages and instead just opened tutorial and _tried_ them my learning rate improved drastically. Pick a tutorial and go.