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A language that is slow to compile can't be the future of anything Waiting for your code to compile in order to be able to see how this new color looks, or thi

A language that is slow to compile can't be the future of anything Waiting for your code to compile in order to be able to see how this new color looks, or this new font or this new title or this new game player speed feels, just is BAD, very BAD You don't have to trust what i say You can however trust facts Here a real world example to verify that fact everyone can test at home Clone this popular open source game written in Rust: https://github.com/veloren/veloren https://github.com/veloren/veloren Compile it, `cargo build` easy Insert "... an hour later .." meme Nice, you got it to compile Now change any value, just like a gamedev would do when he iterates on its game Here for example, the strength of the lighting effect: https://github.com/veloren/veloren/blob/master/server/src/cmd.rs#L3127 https://github.com/veloren/veloren/blob/master/server/src/cm... Again, `cargo build` Let us know, how long it took to compile on your machine It took 17 seconds for me, 17!!! seconds!!!, just because i wanted to change the look of the lighting effect Is this how you view the future of GPU/gamedev programming? GPU/gamedev programming deserve better Even gamers are sick of slow compilers https://gameworldobserver.com/2023/04/07/shader-compilation-stuttering-pc-games-explained https://gameworldobserver.com/2023/04/07/shader-compilation-... When fraudsters and propaganda takes over tech, that's what you get

juliangmp 2y ago
>When fraudsters and propaganda takes over tech, that's what you get ?
0xEF 2y ago
It does make me wonder what the next Language of the Moment will be that has everyone on HN salivating, hailing it as the replacement for all else.
- orangeboats 2y ago
  Comments like yours have been expressed for _9 whole years_ since Rust 1.0 released in 2015. Not so Language of the "Moment" anymore, eh?
vardump 2y ago
I don't know whether Rust will ever be the right language for GPU programming, however your take feels somewhat unfair. Please remember there's a lot of optimizations put in the legacy compilers. What makes you think Rust compile times won't improve?
- carlmr 2y ago
  Also anyone who has worked on a significantly large C++ code base will be really happy about 17 seconds iterative compile times.
  - TinkersW 2y ago
    It was 17 seconds for 1 shader file. Iterative C++ compile times can be very fast if you know what are you doing, 17 seconds is very long unless you have link time optimizations on(which makes no sense for an iterative build).
    - gpm 2y ago
      As far as I can tell they didn't change a shader at all, they linked to code that looks like it runs on the CPU as part of the main binary not as a shader.
pytness 2y ago
I ran `cargo fetch` first to remove the downloading time out of the equation. Ran on arch (AMD R7 7800X3D). First build: > cargo build 2574.91s user 79.89s system 1341% cpu 3:17.84 total After change: > cargo build 11.97s user 1.62s system 176% cpu 7.719 total After another change, this time with --timings: > cargo build --timings 12.00s user 1.60s system 176% cpu 7.722 total Unit | Total | Codegen 1. veloren-server v0.16.0 4.9s 3.7s (75%) 2. veloren-voxygen v0.16.0 4.1s 2.0s (49%) ...
- Ygg2 2y ago
  I have 5900X, and I got like 4m34s build time on Windows (which should be slower). What memory are you using? Are you overclocking? Are you using SSD?
  - pytness 2y ago
    I directly cloned to /tmp. 64GB ddr5, No overclock. edit: (also, the machine was recently rebooted and had very few processes running) After i posted the comment i tested on a laptop running windows with wsl (i7-12850HX 16c 24t) and the first build was going above 8 minutes.
    - Ygg2 2y ago
      So is /tmp a ramdisk? I have 64GB DDR4, but overclocked to double Infinity Fabric timings i.e. 3600 Mhz (it might be different for DDR5/ Zen4-5). I ran this on MSVC toolchain on windows. With like 43% memory taken by various Firefoxe and IntelliJ windows. Either compilers REALLY love CORES, or the Memory speed is causing issue :/ EDIT: Windows compilation 8min took less time than Linux 45min?
      - pytness 2y ago
        Yes, in linux there is a file system type called tmpfs which is mapped to memory (most of the time iirc). > Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on > tmpfs 31G 22M 31G 1% /tmp Try running `cargo build --timings`, it creates a report about build times. My guess would be storage speed, i would not expect memory speed to be that much of an issue. edit: > Windows compilation 8min took less time than Linux 45min? I dont think i understood this correctly, but in the case you are asking (for clarification) about my compile times, i got around 3m:18s on linux, and around >8 minutes on WSL.
orangeboats 2y ago
>Insert "... an hour later .." meme The same meme is true for C++ projects, yet I don't see people screaming C++ propaganda when Unreal Engine uses it for development. Come on now. You are the same thing you complain about.
Ygg2 2y ago
> Clone this popular open source game written in Rust. What does this have to do with Rust GPU? A game is compiling slowly, I get that but what is the connection?
Ygg2 2y ago
> Clone this popular open source game written in Rust: > https://github.com/veloren/veloren https://github.com/veloren/veloren > Compile it, `cargo build` easy > Insert "... an hour later .." meme Download the repo - 15m Cargo fetch - 6m Cargo build - 4m34s How did you get to 4hrs mark? I have 5900x with 3600MHz RAM on fast SSD and win10. Am I the only one on HN that gets semi-normal build times in Rust? Are you all running compilers on i386 or something? Is this on HDD?

juliangmp 2y ago

>When fraudsters and propaganda takes over tech, that's what you get ?

0xEF 2y ago

It does make me wonder what the next Language of the Moment will be that has everyone on HN salivating, hailing it as the replacement for all else.

orangeboats 2y ago
Comments like yours have been expressed for _9 whole years_ since Rust 1.0 released in 2015. Not so Language of the "Moment" anymore, eh?

vardump 2y ago

I don't know whether Rust will ever be the right language for GPU programming, however your take feels somewhat unfair. Please remember there's a lot of optimizations put in the legacy compilers. What makes you think Rust compile times won't improve?

carlmr 2y ago
Also anyone who has worked on a significantly large C++ code base will be really happy about 17 seconds iterative compile times.
- TinkersW 2y ago
  It was 17 seconds for 1 shader file. Iterative C++ compile times can be very fast if you know what are you doing, 17 seconds is very long unless you have link time optimizations on(which makes no sense for an iterative build).
  - gpm 2y ago
    As far as I can tell they didn't change a shader at all, they linked to code that looks like it runs on the CPU as part of the main binary not as a shader.

pytness 2y ago

I ran `cargo fetch` first to remove the downloading time out of the equation. Ran on arch (AMD R7 7800X3D). First build: > cargo build 2574.91s user 79.89s system 1341% cpu 3:17.84 total After change: > cargo build 11.97s user 1.62s system 176% cpu 7.719 total After another change, this time with --timings: > cargo build --timings 12.00s user 1.60s system 176% cpu 7.722 total Unit | Total | Codegen 1. veloren-server v0.16.0 4.9s 3.7s (75%) 2. veloren-voxygen v0.16.0 4.1s 2.0s (49%) ...

Ygg2 2y ago
I have 5900X, and I got like 4m34s build time on Windows (which should be slower). What memory are you using? Are you overclocking? Are you using SSD?
- pytness 2y ago
  I directly cloned to /tmp. 64GB ddr5, No overclock. edit: (also, the machine was recently rebooted and had very few processes running) After i posted the comment i tested on a laptop running windows with wsl (i7-12850HX 16c 24t) and the first build was going above 8 minutes.
  - Ygg2 2y ago
    So is /tmp a ramdisk? I have 64GB DDR4, but overclocked to double Infinity Fabric timings i.e. 3600 Mhz (it might be different for DDR5/ Zen4-5). I ran this on MSVC toolchain on windows. With like 43% memory taken by various Firefoxe and IntelliJ windows. Either compilers REALLY love CORES, or the Memory speed is causing issue :/ EDIT: Windows compilation 8min took less time than Linux 45min?
    - pytness 2y ago
      Yes, in linux there is a file system type called tmpfs which is mapped to memory (most of the time iirc). > Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on > tmpfs 31G 22M 31G 1% /tmp Try running `cargo build --timings`, it creates a report about build times. My guess would be storage speed, i would not expect memory speed to be that much of an issue. edit: > Windows compilation 8min took less time than Linux 45min? I dont think i understood this correctly, but in the case you are asking (for clarification) about my compile times, i got around 3m:18s on linux, and around >8 minutes on WSL.

orangeboats 2y ago

>Insert "... an hour later .." meme The same meme is true for C++ projects, yet I don't see people screaming C++ propaganda when Unreal Engine uses it for development. Come on now. You are the same thing you complain about.

Ygg2 2y ago

> Clone this popular open source game written in Rust. What does this have to do with Rust GPU? A game is compiling slowly, I get that but what is the connection?

Ygg2 2y ago

> Clone this popular open source game written in Rust: > https://github.com/veloren/veloren https://github.com/veloren/veloren > Compile it, `cargo build` easy > Insert "... an hour later .." meme Download the repo - 15m Cargo fetch - 6m Cargo build - 4m34s How did you get to 4hrs mark? I have 5900x with 3600MHz RAM on fast SSD and win10. Am I the only one on HN that gets semi-normal build times in Rust? Are you all running compilers on i386 or something? Is this on HDD?