3 ms·

As much as I would like macOS on iPads, running macOS applications on an iPad without the Magic Keyboard would suck. Windows can do it though, so it's not reall

As much as I would like macOS on iPads, running macOS applications on an iPad without the Magic Keyboard would suck. Windows can do it though, so it's not really an excuse. But, in Microsoft's case, it's sort of different. They had Windows 10 Mobile for tablets which is the closest thing to iPadOS, I suppose. Windows 10 Mobile couldn't run Win32 applications, similar to how iPadOS can't run macOS applications. Microsoft killed Windows 10 Mobile... Implementation-wise though, it's a big effort for Apple. They can't just make macOS applications runnable on iOS. Something like reverse Mac Catalyst for iPadOS wouldn't work due to how complicated and different macOS is compared to iPadOS. It would probably have to be a full on emulation of macOS on iPadOS for applications to run. So, it would seem like starting with macOS then implementing iPadOS on-top would be better than starting with iPadOS and implementing macOS, which is literally what Mac Catalyst is. So now, Apple has to make sure that all iPadOS APIs work with Mac Catalyst (they don't yet) and they have to do something to make the UX work better when switching between touch and M&K. Bringing it back to Microsoft and Windows now. It's quite similar actually. Think of Windows 10 Mobile = iPadOS, UWP = iPadOS apps, Win32 = macOS apps. Microsoft killed Windows 10 Mobile and replaced it with full-on Windows 10. Windows 10 can run UWP apps. Similarly, Apple will likely have to kill iPadOS and fully implement compatibility with iPad apps on Mac for macOS to ever be on iPads.

walterbell 2y ago
> starting with macOS then implementing iPadOS on-top This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. > They can't just make macOS applications runnable on iOS. Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS. Hardware support for nested virtualization has shipped on Apple Silicon since M2. Google implemented Android Virtualization Framework. There's no shortage of candidate VM operating systems. Microsoft implemented WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) VM. Apple could ship ASF (Apple Subsystem for FreeBSD) VMs.
- kuhsaft 2y ago
  > This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. Right. Apple is adding more and more security features from iOS into macOS. But, people are going to complain about that too. > Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS Absolutely, but there is a performance hit and memory management becomes an issue. You still need a host OS as well to unify the UX. Also, there needs to be some way for IPC between the applications of different OSes. > Microsoft implemented WSL WSL has networking and memory management issues. WSLg sort of works. Its architecture is wild [1]. Display scaling is terrible though. IPC between Windows and WSL guests is limited. WSL 2 was released in 2020 and it still has issues. It's not a simple problem to solve. Microsoft has also gone from WinRT, UWP, WinUI, MAUI, and now WinUI 3 trying to unify application development [2]. Again, it's not a simple problem to solve. I think the only OS that has actually unified application development across all form factors is Android/Chrome OS. But, people complain about how limited Chrome OS is. [1] https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-architecture-overview https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-ar... [2] https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626 https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626
  - nolist_policy 2y ago
    ChromeOS solves the memory management very well. Depending on how you use it, you have up to 3 VMs running in the background with Wayland passtrough: ARCVM (Android), Crostini (Linux dev environment) and Borealis (SteamOS). All these VMs run Linux and Google uses MGLRU in cooperation with Chromes tab discarder to balance memory.
    - kuhsaft 2y ago
      Wow. Never knew about the move to ARCVM. Though the first thing that comes up when I search it is memory and CPU usage issues though :/ Google et al. has put a lot of effort into improving Linux's virtualization capabilities. Goes with being the OS of choice for pretty much all servers I suppose.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    The problem with WinRT, UWP, WinUI, MAUI, and now WinUI 3 is the usual Microsoft mess. As anyone can imagine by that list, every new acronym requires a rewrite, and most folks that aren't on Microsoft pay list no longer care.
makeitdouble 2y ago
> But, in Microsoft's case, it's sort of different. Microsoft has a long history of trying to make both work, but I think the reality of it is actually not that far away: Windows 10/11 is a very poor tablet OS, a ton of stuff will be clunky with touch as it's currently just a very thin layer of adjustments on top of the OS, and expecting to get access to all the potential of the machine without a keyboard and trackpad will be a recipe for disappointment. So, if the iPad had to rival the Surface Pro, it could probably do it tomorrow by just sticking macos on it with the accessibility options (virtual keyboard, mouse etc) and call it a day. Where Microsoft is truely different is that they still shipped the Surface Pro and let users deal with it. The UI in tablet mode is almost the same, with just the taskbar a bit bigger. Sometimes you'll absolutely need a mouse, so if you don't have one you pull the virtual mouse, solve your situation and go back to what you were doing. Sometimes the entry field is from an obscure API and doesn't pop the keyboard, so you pop it manually and deal with it. Or you absolutely need a shortcut, so again you pop the keyboard in the middle of nowhere, hit the shortcut, and make the keyboard go away. This is the clunkiness Microsoft has fully embraced, and it makes their tablets actually "just work" as you're given all the tools to straightly do what you want to do. That's where Apple is backing out, and chose to build a DisneyLand OS instead of a gritty, dirty and clunky, but fully functional city like environment. I get why people want a more polished and elegant experience, but if the goal is to get things done, it's probably the most realistic way forward.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Apple could provide an opt-in, obscure Accessibility mode for clunky-functional.
nicoburns 2y ago
> As much as I would like macOS on iPads, running macOS applications on an iPad without the Magic Keyboard would suck. The ability to run macOS on an iPad with a keyboard and mouse (and perhaps even a second screen), and run ipad OS when you're away from those things would be pretty great. The hardware is already capable of this.
- kuhsaft 2y ago
  I wish they would at least allow VMs on iPadOS. With the release of macOS 15, you can now use iCloud in the guest macOS VM [1]. [1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/using_icloud_with_macos_virtual_machines https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/usi...

walterbell 2y ago

> starting with macOS then implementing iPadOS on-top This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. > They can't just make macOS applications runnable on iOS. Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS. Hardware support for nested virtualization has shipped on Apple Silicon since M2. Google implemented Android Virtualization Framework. There's no shortage of candidate VM operating systems. Microsoft implemented WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) VM. Apple could ship ASF (Apple Subsystem for FreeBSD) VMs.

kuhsaft 2y ago
> This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. Right. Apple is adding more and more security features from iOS into macOS. But, people are going to complain about that too. > Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS Absolutely, but there is a performance hit and memory management becomes an issue. You still need a host OS as well to unify the UX. Also, there needs to be some way for IPC between the applications of different OSes. > Microsoft implemented WSL WSL has networking and memory management issues. WSLg sort of works. Its architecture is wild [1]. Display scaling is terrible though. IPC between Windows and WSL guests is limited. WSL 2 was released in 2020 and it still has issues. It's not a simple problem to solve. Microsoft has also gone from WinRT, UWP, WinUI, MAUI, and now WinUI 3 trying to unify application development [2]. Again, it's not a simple problem to solve. I think the only OS that has actually unified application development across all form factors is Android/Chrome OS. But, people complain about how limited Chrome OS is. [1] https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-architecture-overview https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-ar... [2] https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626 https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626
- nolist_policy 2y ago
  ChromeOS solves the memory management very well. Depending on how you use it, you have up to 3 VMs running in the background with Wayland passtrough: ARCVM (Android), Crostini (Linux dev environment) and Borealis (SteamOS). All these VMs run Linux and Google uses MGLRU in cooperation with Chromes tab discarder to balance memory.
  - kuhsaft 2y ago
    Wow. Never knew about the move to ARCVM. Though the first thing that comes up when I search it is memory and CPU usage issues though :/ Google et al. has put a lot of effort into improving Linux's virtualization capabilities. Goes with being the OS of choice for pretty much all servers I suppose.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  The problem with WinRT, UWP, WinUI, MAUI, and now WinUI 3 is the usual Microsoft mess. As anyone can imagine by that list, every new acronym requires a rewrite, and most folks that aren't on Microsoft pay list no longer care.

makeitdouble 2y ago

> But, in Microsoft's case, it's sort of different. Microsoft has a long history of trying to make both work, but I think the reality of it is actually not that far away: Windows 10/11 is a very poor tablet OS, a ton of stuff will be clunky with touch as it's currently just a very thin layer of adjustments on top of the OS, and expecting to get access to all the potential of the machine without a keyboard and trackpad will be a recipe for disappointment. So, if the iPad had to rival the Surface Pro, it could probably do it tomorrow by just sticking macos on it with the accessibility options (virtual keyboard, mouse etc) and call it a day. Where Microsoft is truely different is that they still shipped the Surface Pro and let users deal with it. The UI in tablet mode is almost the same, with just the taskbar a bit bigger. Sometimes you'll absolutely need a mouse, so if you don't have one you pull the virtual mouse, solve your situation and go back to what you were doing. Sometimes the entry field is from an obscure API and doesn't pop the keyboard, so you pop it manually and deal with it. Or you absolutely need a shortcut, so again you pop the keyboard in the middle of nowhere, hit the shortcut, and make the keyboard go away. This is the clunkiness Microsoft has fully embraced, and it makes their tablets actually "just work" as you're given all the tools to straightly do what you want to do. That's where Apple is backing out, and chose to build a DisneyLand OS instead of a gritty, dirty and clunky, but fully functional city like environment. I get why people want a more polished and elegant experience, but if the goal is to get things done, it's probably the most realistic way forward.

walterbell 2y ago
Apple could provide an opt-in, obscure Accessibility mode for clunky-functional.

nicoburns 2y ago

> As much as I would like macOS on iPads, running macOS applications on an iPad without the Magic Keyboard would suck. The ability to run macOS on an iPad with a keyboard and mouse (and perhaps even a second screen), and run ipad OS when you're away from those things would be pretty great. The hardware is already capable of this.

kuhsaft 2y ago
I wish they would at least allow VMs on iPadOS. With the release of macOS 15, you can now use iCloud in the guest macOS VM [1]. [1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/using_icloud_with_macos_virtual_machines https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/usi...