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What is it about the iPad you want with macOS? It has one port (which is largely used for power), no built in keyboard, an incompatible input device (touch) by

What is it about the iPad you want with macOS? It has one port (which is largely used for power), no built in keyboard, an incompatible input device (touch) by default, and often smaller screens. What’s the appeal?

walterbell 2y ago
This question has been endlessly asked and answered, https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/22/22396449/apple-ipad-pro-macbook-air-macos-2021 https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/22/22396449/apple-ipad-pro-m... The answer is obvious to Apple iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard customers: MOBILE MICROTASKING No, dear Apple, it will not compete with your precious Macbook revenue, because an iPad is not a laptop. Your customers who are pleading for un-crippled iPads will keep buying desktops and laptops. But it will be life-changing for on-demand portable anytime anywhere access to OSS code and professional apps, for last-minute edits, quick checks during video calls, testing-while-learning and countless other scenarios. iPad enables flexible computing, i.e. unlimited use cases -- and revenue! Still the only mobile device with 4:3 HiDPI screen. Apple continues to pour billions into science experiments like Vision Pro (iPad-on-Skull) and anemic cloud services, while refusing to improve the workflows of millions of customers who are willing to pay for repackaging of existing technology already sold by Apple. Fortunately, the industry has not been standing still while Apple squandered a decade of feature-frozen tablet supremacy. Google is now shipping VMs on both phones and tablets. > At a privately held event, Google recently demonstrated a special build of Chromium OS — code-named “ferrochrome” — running in a virtual machine on a Pixel 8. However, Chromium OS wasn’t shown running on the phone’s screen itself. Rather, it was projected to an external display, which is possible because Google recently enabled display output on its Pixel 8 series... Hopefully, Google will offer the ability to run Chrome OS alongside Android in a future device
- kuhsaft 2y ago
  As much as I would like macOS on iPads, running macOS applications on an iPad without the Magic Keyboard would suck. Windows can do it though, so it's not really an excuse. But, in Microsoft's case, it's sort of different. They had Windows 10 Mobile for tablets which is the closest thing to iPadOS, I suppose. Windows 10 Mobile couldn't run Win32 applications, similar to how iPadOS can't run macOS applications. Microsoft killed Windows 10 Mobile... Implementation-wise though, it's a big effort for Apple. They can't just make macOS applications runnable on iOS. Something like reverse Mac Catalyst for iPadOS wouldn't work due to how complicated and different macOS is compared to iPadOS. It would probably have to be a full on emulation of macOS on iPadOS for applications to run. So, it would seem like starting with macOS then implementing iPadOS on-top would be better than starting with iPadOS and implementing macOS, which is literally what Mac Catalyst is. So now, Apple has to make sure that all iPadOS APIs work with Mac Catalyst (they don't yet) and they have to do something to make the UX work better when switching between touch and M&K. Bringing it back to Microsoft and Windows now. It's quite similar actually. Think of Windows 10 Mobile = iPadOS, UWP = iPadOS apps, Win32 = macOS apps. Microsoft killed Windows 10 Mobile and replaced it with full-on Windows 10. Windows 10 can run UWP apps. Similarly, Apple will likely have to kill iPadOS and fully implement compatibility with iPad apps on Mac for macOS to ever be on iPads.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    > starting with macOS then implementing iPadOS on-top This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. > They can't just make macOS applications runnable on iOS. Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS. Hardware support for nested virtualization has shipped on Apple Silicon since M2. Google implemented Android Virtualization Framework. There's no shortage of candidate VM operating systems. Microsoft implemented WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) VM. Apple could ship ASF (Apple Subsystem for FreeBSD) VMs.
    - kuhsaft 2y ago
      > This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. Right. Apple is adding more and more security features from iOS into macOS. But, people are going to complain about that too. > Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS Absolutely, but there is a performance hit and memory management becomes an issue. You still need a host OS as well to unify the UX. Also, there needs to be some way for IPC between the applications of different OSes. > Microsoft implemented WSL WSL has networking and memory management issues. WSLg sort of works. Its architecture is wild [1]. Display scaling is terrible though. IPC between Windows and WSL guests is limited. WSL 2 was released in 2020 and it still has issues. It's not a simple problem to solve. Microsoft has also gone from WinRT, UWP, WinUI, MAUI, and now WinUI 3 trying to unify application development [2]. Again, it's not a simple problem to solve. I think the only OS that has actually unified application development across all form factors is Android/Chrome OS. But, people complain about how limited Chrome OS is. [1] https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-architecture-overview https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-ar... [2] https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626 https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626
      - nolist_policy 2y ago
        ChromeOS solves the memory management very well. Depending on how you use it, you have up to 3 VMs running in the background with Wayland passtrough: ARCVM (Android), Crostini (Linux dev environment) and Borealis (SteamOS). All these VMs run Linux and Google uses MGLRU in cooperation with Chromes tab discarder to balance memory.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Ferrochrome was canceled.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Could an equivalent demo be constructed using open-source components, e.g. via GrapheneOS?
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      I guess if enough people care, then again, what is the business case? Being a cool technology demo will end the same way.
      - walterbell 2y ago
        The same business case for headset displays powered by phones.
- gorkish 2y ago
  Bingo bango. In truth they just need to allow actual apps to use the virtualization that’s already in the goddamn things. It’s maddening.
kmeisthax 2y ago
Apple doesn't sell a MacBook with a cellular modem, drawing stylus, or 4:3 screen. Also, iPads sometimes get the newest chips first (e.g. M4) To be clear, as an iPad Pro owner, I don't think "just put macOS on iPad" is the answer to the iPad's problems, either. But I can appreciate why people complain about it. Apple sold them "a computer", they want "a computer". With full iPad ports of Mac apps, a filesystem that isn't entirely built around share sheets and hope, project exports that don't demand you keep the app foregrounded because Apple can't be arsed to add a "Eat The Whole Battery" multitasking mode, multiple user profiles, third-party developer tools, third-party app distribution, and generally, the ability to innovate on the platform without Apple's prior written consent[0]. The iPad was originally announced as Apple's answer to the netbook: a cheap(ish) touch computer for casual computing tasks and games. In that narrow lane, it succeeded. But in 2015 with the introduction of the iPad Pro, Apple decided that the iPad was going to replace the Macintosh. The Mac was there to be to the iPad what the Apple Lisa was to early Macs: an annoying technical relic to bootstrap software onto the newer, superior platform. Except Apple didn't have the courage to pull the trigger on several features necessary for creative and development workflows on iPadOS until it was too late. e.g. The reason why iPadOS is built so heavily around share sheets is because, for the first six years of the iPad's life, that was the only way to share data between apps[1]. So there's a lot of old apps that do things the annoying way, a lot of roadblocks that get put up arbitrarily, and so on. [0] More broadly, the creative economy needs to stop talking about consent. Consent is for sex, not creativity. [1] iOS 9 (?) added support for shared containers, but AFAIK each app that wants to use the container has to opt into it; and all apps have to be published by the same corporate entity or otherwise consent to data sharing in this way. There was no way to just have files owned by the user and nonconsensually modified by other apps.
- prxtl 2y ago
  > But in 2015 with the introduction of the iPad Pro, Apple decided that the iPad was going to replace the Macintosh. Although that is an intriguing (and controversial) possibility, Apple has never explicitly stated that. What they have done, is continued to heavily invest in the Mac lineup. IMO the ‘Pro’ in iPad Pro is meant to target creative professionals, not all the types of professionals (for e.g. programmers).
Uehreka 2y ago
I have an M4 iPad Pro, it beats my M1 Max MacBook Pro on a lot of benchmarks, yet I cannot use it for programming, 3D modeling or VFX. Yes, I know that apps “technically” exist to do those things. No, those apps are not professional grade. I want VS Code, a Terminal, Blender and Adobe After Effects. Seemingly the only thing stopping those apps from running on the iPad unmodified is the operating system. I want the operating system that runs on the other Mx devices to run on my iPad Pro. I have wanted this for years. I have never been even close to alone in wanting this.

walterbell 2y ago

This question has been endlessly asked and answered, https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/22/22396449/apple-ipad-pro-macbook-air-macos-2021 https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/22/22396449/apple-ipad-pro-m... The answer is obvious to Apple iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard customers: MOBILE MICROTASKING No, dear Apple, it will not compete with your precious Macbook revenue, because an iPad is not a laptop. Your customers who are pleading for un-crippled iPads will keep buying desktops and laptops. But it will be life-changing for on-demand portable anytime anywhere access to OSS code and professional apps, for last-minute edits, quick checks during video calls, testing-while-learning and countless other scenarios. iPad enables flexible computing, i.e. unlimited use cases -- and revenue! Still the only mobile device with 4:3 HiDPI screen. Apple continues to pour billions into science experiments like Vision Pro (iPad-on-Skull) and anemic cloud services, while refusing to improve the workflows of millions of customers who are willing to pay for repackaging of existing technology already sold by Apple. Fortunately, the industry has not been standing still while Apple squandered a decade of feature-frozen tablet supremacy. Google is now shipping VMs on both phones and tablets. > At a privately held event, Google recently demonstrated a special build of Chromium OS — code-named “ferrochrome” — running in a virtual machine on a Pixel 8. However, Chromium OS wasn’t shown running on the phone’s screen itself. Rather, it was projected to an external display, which is possible because Google recently enabled display output on its Pixel 8 series... Hopefully, Google will offer the ability to run Chrome OS alongside Android in a future device

kuhsaft 2y ago
As much as I would like macOS on iPads, running macOS applications on an iPad without the Magic Keyboard would suck. Windows can do it though, so it's not really an excuse. But, in Microsoft's case, it's sort of different. They had Windows 10 Mobile for tablets which is the closest thing to iPadOS, I suppose. Windows 10 Mobile couldn't run Win32 applications, similar to how iPadOS can't run macOS applications. Microsoft killed Windows 10 Mobile... Implementation-wise though, it's a big effort for Apple. They can't just make macOS applications runnable on iOS. Something like reverse Mac Catalyst for iPadOS wouldn't work due to how complicated and different macOS is compared to iPadOS. It would probably have to be a full on emulation of macOS on iPadOS for applications to run. So, it would seem like starting with macOS then implementing iPadOS on-top would be better than starting with iPadOS and implementing macOS, which is literally what Mac Catalyst is. So now, Apple has to make sure that all iPadOS APIs work with Mac Catalyst (they don't yet) and they have to do something to make the UX work better when switching between touch and M&K. Bringing it back to Microsoft and Windows now. It's quite similar actually. Think of Windows 10 Mobile = iPadOS, UWP = iPadOS apps, Win32 = macOS apps. Microsoft killed Windows 10 Mobile and replaced it with full-on Windows 10. Windows 10 can run UWP apps. Similarly, Apple will likely have to kill iPadOS and fully implement compatibility with iPad apps on Mac for macOS to ever be on iPads.
- walterbell 2y ago
  > starting with macOS then implementing iPadOS on-top This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. > They can't just make macOS applications runnable on iOS. Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS. Hardware support for nested virtualization has shipped on Apple Silicon since M2. Google implemented Android Virtualization Framework. There's no shortage of candidate VM operating systems. Microsoft implemented WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) VM. Apple could ship ASF (Apple Subsystem for FreeBSD) VMs.
  - kuhsaft 2y ago
    > This would lose the security properties of iOS, which is a big part of the value proposition for iPhones and iPads. Right. Apple is adding more and more security features from iOS into macOS. But, people are going to complain about that too. > Other operating systems can run in _parallel_ with iOS Absolutely, but there is a performance hit and memory management becomes an issue. You still need a host OS as well to unify the UX. Also, there needs to be some way for IPC between the applications of different OSes. > Microsoft implemented WSL WSL has networking and memory management issues. WSLg sort of works. Its architecture is wild [1]. Display scaling is terrible though. IPC between Windows and WSL guests is limited. WSL 2 was released in 2020 and it still has issues. It's not a simple problem to solve. Microsoft has also gone from WinRT, UWP, WinUI, MAUI, and now WinUI 3 trying to unify application development [2]. Again, it's not a simple problem to solve. I think the only OS that has actually unified application development across all form factors is Android/Chrome OS. But, people complain about how limited Chrome OS is. [1] https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-architecture-overview https://github.com/microsoft/wslg?tab=readme-ov-file#wslg-ar... [2] https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626 https://www.irrlicht3d.org/index.php?t=1626
    - nolist_policy 2y ago
      ChromeOS solves the memory management very well. Depending on how you use it, you have up to 3 VMs running in the background with Wayland passtrough: ARCVM (Android), Crostini (Linux dev environment) and Borealis (SteamOS). All these VMs run Linux and Google uses MGLRU in cooperation with Chromes tab discarder to balance memory.
pjmlp 2y ago
Ferrochrome was canceled.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Could an equivalent demo be constructed using open-source components, e.g. via GrapheneOS?
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    I guess if enough people care, then again, what is the business case? Being a cool technology demo will end the same way.
    - walterbell 2y ago
      The same business case for headset displays powered by phones.
gorkish 2y ago
Bingo bango. In truth they just need to allow actual apps to use the virtualization that’s already in the goddamn things. It’s maddening.

kmeisthax 2y ago

Apple doesn't sell a MacBook with a cellular modem, drawing stylus, or 4:3 screen. Also, iPads sometimes get the newest chips first (e.g. M4) To be clear, as an iPad Pro owner, I don't think "just put macOS on iPad" is the answer to the iPad's problems, either. But I can appreciate why people complain about it. Apple sold them "a computer", they want "a computer". With full iPad ports of Mac apps, a filesystem that isn't entirely built around share sheets and hope, project exports that don't demand you keep the app foregrounded because Apple can't be arsed to add a "Eat The Whole Battery" multitasking mode, multiple user profiles, third-party developer tools, third-party app distribution, and generally, the ability to innovate on the platform without Apple's prior written consent[0]. The iPad was originally announced as Apple's answer to the netbook: a cheap(ish) touch computer for casual computing tasks and games. In that narrow lane, it succeeded. But in 2015 with the introduction of the iPad Pro, Apple decided that the iPad was going to replace the Macintosh. The Mac was there to be to the iPad what the Apple Lisa was to early Macs: an annoying technical relic to bootstrap software onto the newer, superior platform. Except Apple didn't have the courage to pull the trigger on several features necessary for creative and development workflows on iPadOS until it was too late. e.g. The reason why iPadOS is built so heavily around share sheets is because, for the first six years of the iPad's life, that was the only way to share data between apps[1]. So there's a lot of old apps that do things the annoying way, a lot of roadblocks that get put up arbitrarily, and so on. [0] More broadly, the creative economy needs to stop talking about consent. Consent is for sex, not creativity. [1] iOS 9 (?) added support for shared containers, but AFAIK each app that wants to use the container has to opt into it; and all apps have to be published by the same corporate entity or otherwise consent to data sharing in this way. There was no way to just have files owned by the user and nonconsensually modified by other apps.

prxtl 2y ago
> But in 2015 with the introduction of the iPad Pro, Apple decided that the iPad was going to replace the Macintosh. Although that is an intriguing (and controversial) possibility, Apple has never explicitly stated that. What they have done, is continued to heavily invest in the Mac lineup. IMO the ‘Pro’ in iPad Pro is meant to target creative professionals, not all the types of professionals (for e.g. programmers).

Uehreka 2y ago

I have an M4 iPad Pro, it beats my M1 Max MacBook Pro on a lot of benchmarks, yet I cannot use it for programming, 3D modeling or VFX. Yes, I know that apps “technically” exist to do those things. No, those apps are not professional grade. I want VS Code, a Terminal, Blender and Adobe After Effects. Seemingly the only thing stopping those apps from running on the iPad unmodified is the operating system. I want the operating system that runs on the other Mx devices to run on my iPad Pro. I have wanted this for years. I have never been even close to alone in wanting this.