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When you topple a foreign government, destroy all the infrastructure for pointless "shock and awe" and then send the ethnic majority but recently oppressed arme

When you topple a foreign government, destroy all the infrastructure for pointless "shock and awe" and then send the ethnic majority but recently oppressed armed forces home... you bear responsibility for the millions of extra deaths that follow when traumatic civil war rocks the nation. You are the exact example of the delusional American he means.

pclmulqdq 2y ago
You are the exact kind of person to demonstrate why the US builds the best precision weapons in the world and doesn't kill civilians if at all possible. If you are going to blame every single death in a conflict, including indirect deaths (eg excess heart attacks) and deaths at the hands of the other party (IEDs laid by the other side), on the US, there's no reason to give you any more ammunition or make your argument seem rational.
- guappa 2y ago
  I mean, USA could stop doing wars everywhere in the world no? It's not like iraq had tanks by the USA border, ready to roll in no? It also didn't have any of the terrible weapons that USA claimed they had.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    When you are the world police and you stop "doing wars everywhere," everywhere starts doing wars with you (usually through your weaker/looser allies). Hence Ukraine, Hong Kong, the Mexican cartels, Iran's proxy wars, and let's not forget 9/11. In all cases, the US has demonstrated a level of weakness on the foreign stage, and terrible people have come to exploit that. Like it or not, those little wars in Iraq were the long arm of the Pax Americana, which is ending now, to the tune of the first land war in Europe in quite some time. And one of the bloodiest conflicts in recent history. This is what happens when you are a world-spanning empire. An empire, by the way, that Europe, India, China, and the rest of the civilized world has benefitted massively from in the form of free security and safe transport of goods. When there is no dominant empire, the world gets messy.
    - guappa 2y ago
      This needs a very large "citation needed" banner.
      - pclmulqdq 2y ago
        Ah yes, the "source?" argument. The classic cry of people who want to disagree but have nothing productive to add to the discussion. I could point you to literally dozens of books on the Pax Americana and its decline (google is your friend) and America's de facto empire, as well as historical studies of the Pax Brittanica and the Pax Romana. Or Chinese histories that discuss the waves of peace and prosperity following the growth of major dynasties which end exactly the same way. I suspect you won't read any of them though, since nobody who asks for a source in an online discussion really wants a source (nobody ever asks for a source when they agree with you). They just want to claim that their counterpart is uninformed.
        lucubratory 2y ago
        This would be a fantastic copypasta for anytime someone requests you prove the outlandish claims you're making.
        pclmulqdq 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning You want to engage in a debate involving cited sources? What's good for the goose is good for the gander - write a response with a citation or two that rebuts a key point. Otherwise, asking for sources in online arguments is borderline trolling.
        LtWorf 2y ago
        You want people to "read the books", you better be prepared to say which books…
        hnbad 2y ago
- jychang 2y ago
  > You are the exact kind of person to demonstrate why the US builds the best precision weapons in the world and doesn't kill civilians if at all possible. Wait is that a good thing or a bad thing?
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    No value judgment, but he's a good demonstration of why the US does the thing he's accusing the US of not doing. The US goes out of its way to minimize collateral damage because it gets accused of causing all collateral damage in the first place.
    - rjurney 2y ago
      We took out tons of infrastructure in Iraq during shock and awe. Utilities were on the target list. We were about to occupy it. That was incredibly stupid. The infrastructure itself was not collateral damage, it was targeted. We have no occupation plan, it was that stupid. The destruction resulted in millions of extra deaths due to the impoverishment and destruction of Iraqi society. Yes, we bear responsibility for all those deaths. You break it, you own it. That's war.

pclmulqdq 2y ago

You are the exact kind of person to demonstrate why the US builds the best precision weapons in the world and doesn't kill civilians if at all possible. If you are going to blame every single death in a conflict, including indirect deaths (eg excess heart attacks) and deaths at the hands of the other party (IEDs laid by the other side), on the US, there's no reason to give you any more ammunition or make your argument seem rational.

guappa 2y ago
I mean, USA could stop doing wars everywhere in the world no? It's not like iraq had tanks by the USA border, ready to roll in no? It also didn't have any of the terrible weapons that USA claimed they had.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  When you are the world police and you stop "doing wars everywhere," everywhere starts doing wars with you (usually through your weaker/looser allies). Hence Ukraine, Hong Kong, the Mexican cartels, Iran's proxy wars, and let's not forget 9/11. In all cases, the US has demonstrated a level of weakness on the foreign stage, and terrible people have come to exploit that. Like it or not, those little wars in Iraq were the long arm of the Pax Americana, which is ending now, to the tune of the first land war in Europe in quite some time. And one of the bloodiest conflicts in recent history. This is what happens when you are a world-spanning empire. An empire, by the way, that Europe, India, China, and the rest of the civilized world has benefitted massively from in the form of free security and safe transport of goods. When there is no dominant empire, the world gets messy.
  - guappa 2y ago
    This needs a very large "citation needed" banner.
    - pclmulqdq 2y ago
      Ah yes, the "source?" argument. The classic cry of people who want to disagree but have nothing productive to add to the discussion. I could point you to literally dozens of books on the Pax Americana and its decline (google is your friend) and America's de facto empire, as well as historical studies of the Pax Brittanica and the Pax Romana. Or Chinese histories that discuss the waves of peace and prosperity following the growth of major dynasties which end exactly the same way. I suspect you won't read any of them though, since nobody who asks for a source in an online discussion really wants a source (nobody ever asks for a source when they agree with you). They just want to claim that their counterpart is uninformed.
      - lucubratory 2y ago
        This would be a fantastic copypasta for anytime someone requests you prove the outlandish claims you're making.
        pclmulqdq 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning You want to engage in a debate involving cited sources? What's good for the goose is good for the gander - write a response with a citation or two that rebuts a key point. Otherwise, asking for sources in online arguments is borderline trolling.
        LtWorf 2y ago
        You want people to "read the books", you better be prepared to say which books…
      - hnbad 2y ago
jychang 2y ago
> You are the exact kind of person to demonstrate why the US builds the best precision weapons in the world and doesn't kill civilians if at all possible. Wait is that a good thing or a bad thing?
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  No value judgment, but he's a good demonstration of why the US does the thing he's accusing the US of not doing. The US goes out of its way to minimize collateral damage because it gets accused of causing all collateral damage in the first place.
  - rjurney 2y ago
    We took out tons of infrastructure in Iraq during shock and awe. Utilities were on the target list. We were about to occupy it. That was incredibly stupid. The infrastructure itself was not collateral damage, it was targeted. We have no occupation plan, it was that stupid. The destruction resulted in millions of extra deaths due to the impoverishment and destruction of Iraqi society. Yes, we bear responsibility for all those deaths. You break it, you own it. That's war.