5 ms·

>> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed. This isn't just the hardware makers, its also software makers. A ton of the softwar

>> Re-using devices helps us also reduce the number of new devices needed. This isn't just the hardware makers, its also software makers. A ton of the software gets sunset on older versions of Android. Older OnePlus phones, Sony and Google phones are being repurposed for Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish OS because many apps will only work on a specific Android version and up. Same thing with the Google Play store. If you have an older phone that works fine - that's great, too bad none of the software can run on it because modern apps are bloated, you need 12GB of RAM on your phone now. Oh sure you can technically run it, but it won't rune well. I have three or four Windows phones that still run, but are completely worthless because the software can't be updated because the only browser that you could use was Explorer. Now that MS upgraded to Edge, these phones are worthless. Same thing with the Windows apps. I was able to use One Note on my Lumia 950 just as a stand alone note taker, but now it won't update because MS says it doesn't support that older version and I can't update it. I agree 100% hardware makers are one of the reasons, but there's a massive issue with the software makers who do the same thing and essentially stop supporting older versions of their software that run fine on these older devices.

ryandrake 2y ago
It feels like the whole software ecosystem: operating systems, 1st party app and 3rd party app developers, are all conspiring to keep us on the "buy, buy, buy" treadmill. I've got a perfectly good iPhone 7 and quite a few of the apps are no longer even on the app store, and my existing ones are starting to get "upgrades" that put up full-screen modal dialogs telling me the app no longer works on my phone. They can't even let me keep the old working app installed! Not to even mention my old O.G. iPad 1 and iPhone 4 which both work as perfectly as the day I bought them, except that none of the software works and the app store is a total ghost town. Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware.
- kjellsbells 2y ago
  > Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware. Is it the developer, say, of some app for Android or iOS, at fault, or is it that the changing API surface coupled with App Store policies means that an app developer is forced to keep releasing new versions and deprecating older operating systems and hardware? I always had the impression that Google and Apple took a very dim view of apps that were stable and not refreshed.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    It doesn't cost anything or hurt to keep older versions available to download--versions that work on the older OS/API levels.
    - vytautask 2y ago
      >It doesn't cost anything or hurt to keep older versions First, it affects my app ratings in the application store/shop. Some user with 15-year-old device gives me 1-star rating because of some annoying bug that was already fixed 10 years ago but he can not upgrade because that newer version is using a newer API. Also, what about bugfixes and support? I do not want to have to support (answer emails/calls and deal with bad reviews on all platforms) my ancient version of an app. This would make my app unaffordable for 99% of my users.
      - cassepipe 2y ago
        That could easily be fixed by preventing people using old versions to give feedback. I guess no app store currently allows that right ?
      - myaccountonhn 2y ago
        Yeah this is an important perspective for coming up with a solution, because it’s a very legitimate reason to not want to support old hardware…
      - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
        > First, it affects my app ratings in the application store/shop good example of systemic failure - we are destroying a real thing (functionality) to optimise for a fictional thing (rating). There is plenty of old windows software with no support, I have a game that is old enough to drink and it still works and I still sometimes fire it up out of nostalgia. There is no reason software cannot be like an old motorbike - a 40 year old Honda motorbike can still work, if that’s what the user wants.
        2y ago
- tbdenney 2y ago
  I have experienced this exact same scenario. I recently started a new job and want to keep my work stuff completely separate and off my personal phone. I fired up my old iPhone 7 and can't even use the Google authenticator app for 2FA to get into my work accounts!
- this15testingg 2y ago
  even the FOSS world (: RHEL 9+ (and as a result, its decedents) is built for x86_64-v2 and has increased RAM requirements for certain installation procedures, so now hundreds/thousands of perfectly functional small servers are no longer able to upgrade (to the next EL version, obviously there are other distributions, but then there's the resource/energy requirement to change everything to something new...) (: the entirety of computing from top to bottom doesn't give a fuck about the environment. The only way to make this "sustainable" is to slow down and fix/maintain things... but of course that's the antithesis of this world we've built.
  - VyseofArcadia 2y ago
    One project that I keep coming back to again and again is keeping my circa 2011 netbook functional. It was my main computer for most of grad school, and it seems silly that a perfectly functional bit of hardware (for documents, spreadsheets, etc.) like that doesn't work well. What I've found is mainstream distros seem to have no respect for aging hardware. Especially if they're desktop-focused. I have had some success with Trisquel[0], netBSD, and FreeDOS. I'm confident I could get Gentoo working if I'm picky about ebuild selection and build everything on a more modern computer, but that does sort of feel like it defeats the purpose. Another option would be maybe to install a version of a mainstream distro from 2011, with the caveat that I'd only be able to install software included on the installation media. Debian Squeeze repos are long gone. I feel like I shouldn't have to stray so far from the beaten path to do something on a computer from 2011 that I could do comfortably on a Packard Bell in 1992. [0] On recommendation from an FSF employee. Hardware that can run free software top-to-bottom tends to skew a little older, so Trisquel needs to run well on older hardware.
  - worik 2y ago
    > The only way to make this "sustainable" is to slow down and fix/maintain things.. The other way is to design the machines, redesign, from the start so at the end they can be dismantled and their resources reused
- boznz 2y ago
  Apps are rarely self-contained you build on layers all the way down to the OS and BIOS/Firmware, I can fire up an old windows or DOS program only because Microsoft still support ancient API's or the BIOS API's still exist on the PC. The older phone processors are still perfectly fine but Apple and Google are not going to support them as they may be slow with new (bloated) code or may not have some fancy feature they use for one tiny part of their latest OS, same with the frameworks that build on top of them and with everything web these days there are a lot of layers.
nixosbestos 2y ago
It's so upsetting. I keep my Pixel 3 as a spare phone. It's perfectly fine, I just used it for 5 days while my primary was on it's own adventure. Perfectly fine, other than it being completely unsupported by Qualcomm and Google, and thus unusable as a daily-driver since banking apps, wallet, etc no longer work, as I've had to move to LineageOS for any sort of updates.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  Similarly, my A51 is only like 3-4 years old and it's already being slowly reduced to a useless brick because it only supports 4G which is being phased out and I keep losing connection entirely in some areas. The 85% charging limit has prevented the battery from degrading much over the years so it's still good for more than a day of use even after all this time. It literally works as good as the day I bought it and I'll have to get rid of it soon. There should be more of a push for backwards compatibility at this sort of protocol level, if we stop supporting 2.4Ghz wifi a metric shit ton of devices will just become junk overnight even if they still work perfectly.
  - sourcepluck 2y ago
    > The 85% charging limit has prevented the battery from degrading much over the years Sorry, what is that? Is this something everyone knows, or some secret lore. I keep meaning to look up the basics of batteries and prolonging their life, and still haven't got their, so this comment triggers me (in a good way).
    - moffkalast 2y ago
      I think it's called "protect battery" or something like that in recent versions of Android, it just caps the max voltage your phone will charge to if left connected. The basic deal is this: lithium cells like being at sort of half charge (typically 3.85V) where they don't degrade and this is called storage charge as a result. It's what any battery that's in a box or on a shelf will be at. Going above 90% and under 15% (voltages depend on the exact chemistry) will do damage especially if left that way more than a few hours. So if you say, leave your phone on your bedstand to charge overnight, it'll do fast charging (which also does damage btw) and get itself to absolute max in like half an hour and then sit there for another 7-8 hours degrading until you unplug it. That's what this mainly prevents in practical day to day use. So yeah, for best battery longevity charge with up to 1C (e.g. for a 3Ah battery, that's 3A max), charge in large chunks and try to keep it between 25-85% for the most part. Then you're basically guaranteed to get the max number of cycles out of it. There's also another great feature called "power saving" which reduces power draw significantly (at least on my phone)by reducing background spying and capping CPU speed so it can last for 3-4 days if I don't use it much, which again saves a lot of charge cycles.
tsimionescu 2y ago
The problem with software support is that it costs a lot to keep old versions around, and even to keep drivers for old hardware around. Even if there weren't perverse incentives to brick old phones to sell new hardware, it's very hard to imagine that any company would keep old software working for free like this. Windows, which did aim to keep back compact and support relatively old devices in its day was quite expensive for its time, and upgrades were not free either.
- agentultra 2y ago
  Companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft effectively have infinite money. It’s not a cost issue for them. And if it’s a nuisance for them, they could release the specs and source code. The source code is effectively worthless to them. Why bother withholding it when it could be used to maintain old devices?
  - appplication 2y ago
    They also have very large software footprints, and enough bugs in their latest/supported versions that it is difficult to justify taking resources from latest to support to older versions with dwindling user base. I know the software upgrade cycle is frustrating but if you’ve ever tried to both release new features and maintain legacy versions of software you know how complex that quickly becomes. It is not simply a matter of releasing legacy source code. Modern software is extraordinarily complex and interwoven. Modern software doesn’t just run in one place, it exists across a multitude of systems and services, each with their own contracts and interfaces that evolved over time. There is a reason these companies have tens of thousands of engineers maintaining their code bases. Not to mention there are very real concerns about proprietary information, as many components of legacy systems are present in derived forms in their successors. I’m all about right repair - especially for hardware - but it’s a bit naive to think that we’ll find nirvana in opening up legacy source code. I know it’s a tinkerer’s dream to dive through old versions of software you used to run and add your own little personal features, but realistically it would do nothing to move the needle much on actual public use of legacy software. Don’t forget the average user often cannot even troubleshoot why their printer is not working, let alone install, run, and troubleshoot a custom android stack on their 2006 Nokia.

ryandrake 2y ago

It feels like the whole software ecosystem: operating systems, 1st party app and 3rd party app developers, are all conspiring to keep us on the "buy, buy, buy" treadmill. I've got a perfectly good iPhone 7 and quite a few of the apps are no longer even on the app store, and my existing ones are starting to get "upgrades" that put up full-screen modal dialogs telling me the app no longer works on my phone. They can't even let me keep the old working app installed! Not to even mention my old O.G. iPad 1 and iPhone 4 which both work as perfectly as the day I bought them, except that none of the software works and the app store is a total ghost town. Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware.

kjellsbells 2y ago
> Software developers are mostly to blame for obsoleting perfectly working hardware. Is it the developer, say, of some app for Android or iOS, at fault, or is it that the changing API surface coupled with App Store policies means that an app developer is forced to keep releasing new versions and deprecating older operating systems and hardware? I always had the impression that Google and Apple took a very dim view of apps that were stable and not refreshed.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  It doesn't cost anything or hurt to keep older versions available to download--versions that work on the older OS/API levels.
  - vytautask 2y ago
    >It doesn't cost anything or hurt to keep older versions First, it affects my app ratings in the application store/shop. Some user with 15-year-old device gives me 1-star rating because of some annoying bug that was already fixed 10 years ago but he can not upgrade because that newer version is using a newer API. Also, what about bugfixes and support? I do not want to have to support (answer emails/calls and deal with bad reviews on all platforms) my ancient version of an app. This would make my app unaffordable for 99% of my users.
    - cassepipe 2y ago
      That could easily be fixed by preventing people using old versions to give feedback. I guess no app store currently allows that right ?
    - myaccountonhn 2y ago
      Yeah this is an important perspective for coming up with a solution, because it’s a very legitimate reason to not want to support old hardware…
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      > First, it affects my app ratings in the application store/shop good example of systemic failure - we are destroying a real thing (functionality) to optimise for a fictional thing (rating). There is plenty of old windows software with no support, I have a game that is old enough to drink and it still works and I still sometimes fire it up out of nostalgia. There is no reason software cannot be like an old motorbike - a 40 year old Honda motorbike can still work, if that’s what the user wants.
      - 2y ago
tbdenney 2y ago
I have experienced this exact same scenario. I recently started a new job and want to keep my work stuff completely separate and off my personal phone. I fired up my old iPhone 7 and can't even use the Google authenticator app for 2FA to get into my work accounts!
this15testingg 2y ago
even the FOSS world (: RHEL 9+ (and as a result, its decedents) is built for x86_64-v2 and has increased RAM requirements for certain installation procedures, so now hundreds/thousands of perfectly functional small servers are no longer able to upgrade (to the next EL version, obviously there are other distributions, but then there's the resource/energy requirement to change everything to something new...) (: the entirety of computing from top to bottom doesn't give a fuck about the environment. The only way to make this "sustainable" is to slow down and fix/maintain things... but of course that's the antithesis of this world we've built.
- VyseofArcadia 2y ago
  One project that I keep coming back to again and again is keeping my circa 2011 netbook functional. It was my main computer for most of grad school, and it seems silly that a perfectly functional bit of hardware (for documents, spreadsheets, etc.) like that doesn't work well. What I've found is mainstream distros seem to have no respect for aging hardware. Especially if they're desktop-focused. I have had some success with Trisquel[0], netBSD, and FreeDOS. I'm confident I could get Gentoo working if I'm picky about ebuild selection and build everything on a more modern computer, but that does sort of feel like it defeats the purpose. Another option would be maybe to install a version of a mainstream distro from 2011, with the caveat that I'd only be able to install software included on the installation media. Debian Squeeze repos are long gone. I feel like I shouldn't have to stray so far from the beaten path to do something on a computer from 2011 that I could do comfortably on a Packard Bell in 1992. [0] On recommendation from an FSF employee. Hardware that can run free software top-to-bottom tends to skew a little older, so Trisquel needs to run well on older hardware.
- worik 2y ago
  > The only way to make this "sustainable" is to slow down and fix/maintain things.. The other way is to design the machines, redesign, from the start so at the end they can be dismantled and their resources reused
boznz 2y ago
Apps are rarely self-contained you build on layers all the way down to the OS and BIOS/Firmware, I can fire up an old windows or DOS program only because Microsoft still support ancient API's or the BIOS API's still exist on the PC. The older phone processors are still perfectly fine but Apple and Google are not going to support them as they may be slow with new (bloated) code or may not have some fancy feature they use for one tiny part of their latest OS, same with the frameworks that build on top of them and with everything web these days there are a lot of layers.

nixosbestos 2y ago

It's so upsetting. I keep my Pixel 3 as a spare phone. It's perfectly fine, I just used it for 5 days while my primary was on it's own adventure. Perfectly fine, other than it being completely unsupported by Qualcomm and Google, and thus unusable as a daily-driver since banking apps, wallet, etc no longer work, as I've had to move to LineageOS for any sort of updates.

moffkalast 2y ago
Similarly, my A51 is only like 3-4 years old and it's already being slowly reduced to a useless brick because it only supports 4G which is being phased out and I keep losing connection entirely in some areas. The 85% charging limit has prevented the battery from degrading much over the years so it's still good for more than a day of use even after all this time. It literally works as good as the day I bought it and I'll have to get rid of it soon. There should be more of a push for backwards compatibility at this sort of protocol level, if we stop supporting 2.4Ghz wifi a metric shit ton of devices will just become junk overnight even if they still work perfectly.
- sourcepluck 2y ago
  > The 85% charging limit has prevented the battery from degrading much over the years Sorry, what is that? Is this something everyone knows, or some secret lore. I keep meaning to look up the basics of batteries and prolonging their life, and still haven't got their, so this comment triggers me (in a good way).
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    I think it's called "protect battery" or something like that in recent versions of Android, it just caps the max voltage your phone will charge to if left connected. The basic deal is this: lithium cells like being at sort of half charge (typically 3.85V) where they don't degrade and this is called storage charge as a result. It's what any battery that's in a box or on a shelf will be at. Going above 90% and under 15% (voltages depend on the exact chemistry) will do damage especially if left that way more than a few hours. So if you say, leave your phone on your bedstand to charge overnight, it'll do fast charging (which also does damage btw) and get itself to absolute max in like half an hour and then sit there for another 7-8 hours degrading until you unplug it. That's what this mainly prevents in practical day to day use. So yeah, for best battery longevity charge with up to 1C (e.g. for a 3Ah battery, that's 3A max), charge in large chunks and try to keep it between 25-85% for the most part. Then you're basically guaranteed to get the max number of cycles out of it. There's also another great feature called "power saving" which reduces power draw significantly (at least on my phone)by reducing background spying and capping CPU speed so it can last for 3-4 days if I don't use it much, which again saves a lot of charge cycles.

tsimionescu 2y ago

The problem with software support is that it costs a lot to keep old versions around, and even to keep drivers for old hardware around. Even if there weren't perverse incentives to brick old phones to sell new hardware, it's very hard to imagine that any company would keep old software working for free like this. Windows, which did aim to keep back compact and support relatively old devices in its day was quite expensive for its time, and upgrades were not free either.

agentultra 2y ago
Companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft effectively have infinite money. It’s not a cost issue for them. And if it’s a nuisance for them, they could release the specs and source code. The source code is effectively worthless to them. Why bother withholding it when it could be used to maintain old devices?
- appplication 2y ago
  They also have very large software footprints, and enough bugs in their latest/supported versions that it is difficult to justify taking resources from latest to support to older versions with dwindling user base. I know the software upgrade cycle is frustrating but if you’ve ever tried to both release new features and maintain legacy versions of software you know how complex that quickly becomes. It is not simply a matter of releasing legacy source code. Modern software is extraordinarily complex and interwoven. Modern software doesn’t just run in one place, it exists across a multitude of systems and services, each with their own contracts and interfaces that evolved over time. There is a reason these companies have tens of thousands of engineers maintaining their code bases. Not to mention there are very real concerns about proprietary information, as many components of legacy systems are present in derived forms in their successors. I’m all about right repair - especially for hardware - but it’s a bit naive to think that we’ll find nirvana in opening up legacy source code. I know it’s a tinkerer’s dream to dive through old versions of software you used to run and add your own little personal features, but realistically it would do nothing to move the needle much on actual public use of legacy software. Don’t forget the average user often cannot even troubleshoot why their printer is not working, let alone install, run, and troubleshoot a custom android stack on their 2006 Nokia.