4 ms·

Dumb question: Why are 12ga shotguns, possibly on small auto-targeting platforms, not a thing yet? Like a CWIS/CRAM but tiny and for close-in engagements?

drawnwren 2y ago
The problem with shotguns is that you either have a small number of pellets (12ga) or a small amount of mass to do damage (bird shot). So with 12ga specifically, while it's more effective than a rifle round -- the pellets spread quickly enough that it's only a huge advantage when the drone is in the terminal phase. This is why in WW2, they would put timed fuses inside the AA shells so that they didn't have to hit the aircraft directly with the shell but the round didn't spread so far that it was useless.
- newsclues 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    You may as well use rifle bullets then.
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      and the rifled bullets will be more aerodynamic and also have rifling for stability. .50 BMG or an autocannon or something. shotgun slugs aren't usable in any serious, consistent way outside of maybe 20 meters (~60 ft). nasty stuff if you're in range, through.
      - newsclues 2y ago
        Bullets do not have rifling, that is done by the barrel of the rifle. Shotgun slugs can be useful well beyond 20 meters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug#:~:text=A%20slug%20also%20becomes%20increasingly,(910%20m)%20or%20more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug#:~:text=A%20slug%.... As a Canadian, I am normally not the one correcting others on the basics of firearms.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  I hear you, and a prox shell would be ideal, but I have a hard time seeing the comparisons. The scale of attack drones is so small and fast and close, and the drones are very fragile. Perhaps the hand grenade "bomber" types can be far enough up, but the FPV impactor types are right up in your face and have to fly at you to be effective.
  - JohnBooty 2y ago
    I would be surprised if we didn't eventually see something like you describe. I could see it protecting bases, trenches, encampments, etc. But I think an open question is if it could be made portable enough to tote around on the battlefield.
    - okwhateverdude 2y ago
      4-legged robot mule with ordinance. I mean, they are already putting rifles on the robot dogs.
dsv3099i 2y ago
Apparently they are a thing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/05/09/shotguns-are-russias-last-defense-against-drones/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/05/09/shotgu... If attack drones can move like racing drones, that’s going to be a hard shot to pull off though
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  The FPV impactor types have some kind of approach phase I'd imagine. The loitering "drop grenades on cars" kind are probably much easier to knock down.
willmadden 2y ago
Not 12 gauge, but full-auto punt guns with automated targeting and fire controls could be highly effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun
hajile 2y ago
Look around and you can find tons of Russian and Ukrainian soldiers skeet shooting drones with various levels of success. There are issues though. Skeet guns are 28-34" barrels which is super-long. These guns are also heavy. Once you have ammo loaded up, you're talking 11+ pounds. These guns size and weight make them almost unusable for anything outside of drones. Carrying around an extra gun and heavy ammo is a big commitment both physically and logistically.
- jajko 2y ago
  Double-barreled sawed-off shotgun in Doom style. Anyway you may not have enough time to fire more, and save quite a bit on weight and maneuverability. Maybe some special longer shells with more pellets, any slight touch and those lightweight plastics break and drone goes down.
swagasaurus-rex 2y ago
I'm imagining a shoulder mounted auto-targeting pistol. 9mm rounds go 1500 ft per second, so probably within 300 meters a drone wouldn't have the reaction time to dodge a bullet with precise aim. It could also be mounted on a dog, real or robotic. Actually building this thing though might be a science fiction dream.
- hx8 2y ago
  An FPV can clear those 300 meters in 6 seconds. Maybe six seconds is enough for target identification, aiming, and firing, but it is a tight timeline for tracking an ~1kg object ~0.3km away.
- Animats 2y ago
  > I'm imagining a shoulder mounted auto-targeting pistol. About a decade ago, DARPA developed a .50 caliber gun round that has onboard guidance.[1] They were thinking snipers, not anti-drone, but maybe the concept can be adapted. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXACTO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXACTO
__loam 2y ago
They are using shotguns but drones are small and usually pretty quiet.

drawnwren 2y ago

The problem with shotguns is that you either have a small number of pellets (12ga) or a small amount of mass to do damage (bird shot). So with 12ga specifically, while it's more effective than a rifle round -- the pellets spread quickly enough that it's only a huge advantage when the drone is in the terminal phase. This is why in WW2, they would put timed fuses inside the AA shells so that they didn't have to hit the aircraft directly with the shell but the round didn't spread so far that it was useless.

newsclues 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  You may as well use rifle bullets then.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    and the rifled bullets will be more aerodynamic and also have rifling for stability. .50 BMG or an autocannon or something. shotgun slugs aren't usable in any serious, consistent way outside of maybe 20 meters (~60 ft). nasty stuff if you're in range, through.
    - newsclues 2y ago
      Bullets do not have rifling, that is done by the barrel of the rifle. Shotgun slugs can be useful well beyond 20 meters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug#:~:text=A%20slug%20also%20becomes%20increasingly,(910%20m)%20or%20more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug#:~:text=A%20slug%.... As a Canadian, I am normally not the one correcting others on the basics of firearms.
jvanderbot 2y ago
I hear you, and a prox shell would be ideal, but I have a hard time seeing the comparisons. The scale of attack drones is so small and fast and close, and the drones are very fragile. Perhaps the hand grenade "bomber" types can be far enough up, but the FPV impactor types are right up in your face and have to fly at you to be effective.
- JohnBooty 2y ago
  I would be surprised if we didn't eventually see something like you describe. I could see it protecting bases, trenches, encampments, etc. But I think an open question is if it could be made portable enough to tote around on the battlefield.
  - okwhateverdude 2y ago
    4-legged robot mule with ordinance. I mean, they are already putting rifles on the robot dogs.

dsv3099i 2y ago

Apparently they are a thing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/05/09/shotguns-are-russias-last-defense-against-drones/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/05/09/shotgu... If attack drones can move like racing drones, that’s going to be a hard shot to pull off though

jvanderbot 2y ago
The FPV impactor types have some kind of approach phase I'd imagine. The loitering "drop grenades on cars" kind are probably much easier to knock down.

willmadden 2y ago

Not 12 gauge, but full-auto punt guns with automated targeting and fire controls could be highly effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

hajile 2y ago

Look around and you can find tons of Russian and Ukrainian soldiers skeet shooting drones with various levels of success. There are issues though. Skeet guns are 28-34" barrels which is super-long. These guns are also heavy. Once you have ammo loaded up, you're talking 11+ pounds. These guns size and weight make them almost unusable for anything outside of drones. Carrying around an extra gun and heavy ammo is a big commitment both physically and logistically.

jajko 2y ago
Double-barreled sawed-off shotgun in Doom style. Anyway you may not have enough time to fire more, and save quite a bit on weight and maneuverability. Maybe some special longer shells with more pellets, any slight touch and those lightweight plastics break and drone goes down.

swagasaurus-rex 2y ago

I'm imagining a shoulder mounted auto-targeting pistol. 9mm rounds go 1500 ft per second, so probably within 300 meters a drone wouldn't have the reaction time to dodge a bullet with precise aim. It could also be mounted on a dog, real or robotic. Actually building this thing though might be a science fiction dream.

hx8 2y ago
An FPV can clear those 300 meters in 6 seconds. Maybe six seconds is enough for target identification, aiming, and firing, but it is a tight timeline for tracking an ~1kg object ~0.3km away.
Animats 2y ago
> I'm imagining a shoulder mounted auto-targeting pistol. About a decade ago, DARPA developed a .50 caliber gun round that has onboard guidance.[1] They were thinking snipers, not anti-drone, but maybe the concept can be adapted. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXACTO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXACTO

__loam 2y ago

They are using shotguns but drones are small and usually pretty quiet.