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For years, OEMs were made to install a number of Google apps onto the homescreen at predefined places. One of which is the Play Store. Amazon (for example) abso

by xethos 2y ago

For years, OEMs were made to install a number of Google apps onto the homescreen at predefined places. One of which is the Play Store. Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage, despite this kind of thing happening on non-Google hardware. Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. That's the only store that's allowed to do that. And while the tech community might like being able to control which apps auto-update, everyone wants some apps to be allowed to update without user interaction.

Izkata 2y ago
Speaking of OEMs (and non-Google Android in general), Google has moved some functionality from base Android into Google Play Services so some apps won't work unless you get that installed.
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  This is easily seen to be false, but I see it repeated often. The functionality in Google Play Services requires a server. If you don't use Google services, you don't need Play Services. https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages
  - _imnothere 2y ago
    Apparently you don't know enough about Android, a perfect example of this is eSIM, you simply couldn't use eSIM without Google Play Services.
    - lern_too_spel 2y ago
      That functionality was never available in phones with Google builds without Google Play Services, so it doesn't fit GGP's claim. The reason it's not in base AOSP out of the box is that it requires a server, and any carrier can build an implementation for downloading carrier profiles without Google Play Services and any OEM can build an LPA using https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview.
      - riversflow 2y ago
        You don’t have GPS satellite data, “location services” without Google Play services. That means a gps lock takes minutes. This data could be stored on the phone, but it’s better for google if you fetch it from them when you need it.
        lern_too_spel 2y ago
        Another example of something that was never in AOSP and so does not fit GGGGP's claim. You can still get your GPS location without Google Play Services exactly the same as you always could.
        vel0city 2y ago
        Sure, if apps choose to use those APIs you can still theoretically get a GPS fix. But tons of apps just use the Google Play Services APIs.
        immibis 2y ago
        And Google heavily pushes them to, to the point of (when I last made an android app years ago) automatically adding its libraries to your project every time you open the project, then giving compiler warnings if you use the old ones.
        yket645wykj 2y ago
        the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service gps satellite data comes from a supl server, and supl support is built in to aosp. now, unfortunately one of the most reliable supl data sources is google, but it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from (neither the request nor payload vary)
        riversflow 2y ago
        > the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service not true. A standalone gps unit can use an almanac to get a gps lock, but supl suppplants using an almanac. supl is a spec created by the telecom industry[1][2]. I don't think they want people to have good offline gps. > it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from Lmao. It is definitely not trivial. I have an Android that is running lineage and microG, it's an endeavor for someone who likes tech. Regardless, according to my understanding of the spec, the supl server authenticates your identity[3] and is already effectively tracking you, so using a proxy would only obfuscate your IP address. As such, I don't think IP alone is enough to maintain privacy from Google. You would need middleware to anonymize your device ID. But really, I find it egregious that I can't choose to use simple gps almanac data and must instead either use a blind fix on my phone or give my data up to some random server. Standalone GPS units that use almanac data get a lock virtually instantly compared to my Note 10. I'm trying to create a disconnected smartphone for backpacking. It's garbage to have to burn battery needlessly. [1] https://docs.broadcom.com/doc/1211168566155 https://docs.broadcom.com/doc/1211168566155 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Mobile_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Mobile_Alliance [3] pdf! page 13 https://www.openmobilealliance.org/release/SUPL/V2_0_6-20200804-A/OMA-AD-SUPL-V2_0-20120417-A.pdf https://www.openmobilealliance.org/release/SUPL/V2_0_6-20200...
    - yket645wykj 2y ago
      eh. you can't provision the esim without google play services today. after the esim is provisioned you can put whatever firmware on the phone you like, and it will just work. i'm running lineageos with no google play services on a verizon esim as my daily driver
lern_too_spel 2y ago
> Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage Google incentivized the OEMs to do that. Amazon could have incentivized OEMs to do that also, but the business plan that Amazon pursued did not involve third parties building their own Kindle devices. > Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12, which I credit Epic for.
- sbuk 2y ago
  Microsoft also “incentivized” OEMs to not install competing browsers by threatening to remove their OEM licensing. Didn’t Google do something similar?
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    No. They just threatened to remove access to the Play Store.
    - sbuk 2y ago
      So, something similar then. OK, not as onerous as removing the whole OS, which they can’t do because Android uses an open license, but the next big thing. No play store, no Google services. May as well remove the OS.
- klez 2y ago
  > This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12 I'm on Android 14 here, shipped with Play Store by default. It still auto-updates apps.
  - Phrodo_00 2y ago
    Exclusivity hasn't been true. eg F-droid can auto update apps.
thegeekpirate 2y ago
That isn't true anymore, F-Droid for example auto-updates
Phrodo_00 2y ago
Ah, this is true, but it's weird consider this issue (that I agree google might be overstepping in) in a lawsuit that doesn't involve an affected OEM.

by xethos 2y ago

Izkata 2y ago

Speaking of OEMs (and non-Google Android in general), Google has moved some functionality from base Android into Google Play Services so some apps won't work unless you get that installed.

lern_too_spel 2y ago
This is easily seen to be false, but I see it repeated often. The functionality in Google Play Services requires a server. If you don't use Google services, you don't need Play Services. https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages
- _imnothere 2y ago
  Apparently you don't know enough about Android, a perfect example of this is eSIM, you simply couldn't use eSIM without Google Play Services.
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    That functionality was never available in phones with Google builds without Google Play Services, so it doesn't fit GGP's claim. The reason it's not in base AOSP out of the box is that it requires a server, and any carrier can build an implementation for downloading carrier profiles without Google Play Services and any OEM can build an LPA using https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview.
    - riversflow 2y ago
      You don’t have GPS satellite data, “location services” without Google Play services. That means a gps lock takes minutes. This data could be stored on the phone, but it’s better for google if you fetch it from them when you need it.
      - lern_too_spel 2y ago
        Another example of something that was never in AOSP and so does not fit GGGGP's claim. You can still get your GPS location without Google Play Services exactly the same as you always could.
        vel0city 2y ago
        Sure, if apps choose to use those APIs you can still theoretically get a GPS fix. But tons of apps just use the Google Play Services APIs.
        immibis 2y ago
        And Google heavily pushes them to, to the point of (when I last made an android app years ago) automatically adding its libraries to your project every time you open the project, then giving compiler warnings if you use the old ones.
      - yket645wykj 2y ago
        the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service gps satellite data comes from a supl server, and supl support is built in to aosp. now, unfortunately one of the most reliable supl data sources is google, but it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from (neither the request nor payload vary)
        riversflow 2y ago
        > the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service not true. A standalone gps unit can use an almanac to get a gps lock, but supl suppplants using an almanac. supl is a spec created by the telecom industry[1][2]. I don't think they want people to have good offline gps. > it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from Lmao. It is definitely not trivial. I have an Android that is running lineage and microG, it's an endeavor for someone who likes tech. Regardless, according to my understanding of the spec, the supl server authenticates your identity[3] and is already effectively tracking you, so using a proxy would only obfuscate your IP address. As such, I don't think IP alone is enough to maintain privacy from Google. You would need middleware to anonymize your device ID. But really, I find it egregious that I can't choose to use simple gps almanac data and must instead either use a blind fix on my phone or give my data up to some random server. Standalone GPS units that use almanac data get a lock virtually instantly compared to my Note 10. I'm trying to create a disconnected smartphone for backpacking. It's garbage to have to burn battery needlessly. [1] https://docs.broadcom.com/doc/1211168566155 https://docs.broadcom.com/doc/1211168566155 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Mobile_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Mobile_Alliance [3] pdf! page 13 https://www.openmobilealliance.org/release/SUPL/V2_0_6-20200804-A/OMA-AD-SUPL-V2_0-20120417-A.pdf https://www.openmobilealliance.org/release/SUPL/V2_0_6-20200...
  - yket645wykj 2y ago
    eh. you can't provision the esim without google play services today. after the esim is provisioned you can put whatever firmware on the phone you like, and it will just work. i'm running lineageos with no google play services on a verizon esim as my daily driver

lern_too_spel 2y ago

> Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage Google incentivized the OEMs to do that. Amazon could have incentivized OEMs to do that also, but the business plan that Amazon pursued did not involve third parties building their own Kindle devices. > Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12, which I credit Epic for.

sbuk 2y ago
Microsoft also “incentivized” OEMs to not install competing browsers by threatening to remove their OEM licensing. Didn’t Google do something similar?
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  No. They just threatened to remove access to the Play Store.
  - sbuk 2y ago
    So, something similar then. OK, not as onerous as removing the whole OS, which they can’t do because Android uses an open license, but the next big thing. No play store, no Google services. May as well remove the OS.
klez 2y ago
> This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12 I'm on Android 14 here, shipped with Play Store by default. It still auto-updates apps.
- Phrodo_00 2y ago
  Exclusivity hasn't been true. eg F-droid can auto update apps.

thegeekpirate 2y ago

That isn't true anymore, F-Droid for example auto-updates

Phrodo_00 2y ago

Ah, this is true, but it's weird consider this issue (that I agree google might be overstepping in) in a lawsuit that doesn't involve an affected OEM.