4 ms·

> Google appears open yet is closed in practice How is Android closed in practice?

xethos 2y ago
For years, OEMs were made to install a number of Google apps onto the homescreen at predefined places. One of which is the Play Store. Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage, despite this kind of thing happening on non-Google hardware. Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. That's the only store that's allowed to do that. And while the tech community might like being able to control which apps auto-update, everyone wants some apps to be allowed to update without user interaction.
- Izkata 2y ago
  Speaking of OEMs (and non-Google Android in general), Google has moved some functionality from base Android into Google Play Services so some apps won't work unless you get that installed.
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    This is easily seen to be false, but I see it repeated often. The functionality in Google Play Services requires a server. If you don't use Google services, you don't need Play Services. https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages
    - _imnothere 2y ago
      Apparently you don't know enough about Android, a perfect example of this is eSIM, you simply couldn't use eSIM without Google Play Services.
      - lern_too_spel 2y ago
        That functionality was never available in phones with Google builds without Google Play Services, so it doesn't fit GGP's claim. The reason it's not in base AOSP out of the box is that it requires a server, and any carrier can build an implementation for downloading carrier profiles without Google Play Services and any OEM can build an LPA using https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview.
        riversflow 2y ago
        You don’t have GPS satellite data, “location services” without Google Play services. That means a gps lock takes minutes. This data could be stored on the phone, but it’s better for google if you fetch it from them when you need it.
        lern_too_spel 2y ago
        Another example of something that was never in AOSP and so does not fit GGGGP's claim. You can still get your GPS location without Google Play Services exactly the same as you always could.
        vel0city 2y ago
        Sure, if apps choose to use those APIs you can still theoretically get a GPS fix. But tons of apps just use the Google Play Services APIs.
        immibis 2y ago
        And Google heavily pushes them to, to the point of (when I last made an android app years ago) automatically adding its libraries to your project every time you open the project, then giving compiler warnings if you use the old ones.
        yket645wykj 2y ago
        the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service gps satellite data comes from a supl server, and supl support is built in to aosp. now, unfortunately one of the most reliable supl data sources is google, but it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from (neither the request nor payload vary)
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  > Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage Google incentivized the OEMs to do that. Amazon could have incentivized OEMs to do that also, but the business plan that Amazon pursued did not involve third parties building their own Kindle devices. > Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12, which I credit Epic for.
  - sbuk 2y ago
    Microsoft also “incentivized” OEMs to not install competing browsers by threatening to remove their OEM licensing. Didn’t Google do something similar?
    - lern_too_spel 2y ago
      No. They just threatened to remove access to the Play Store.
      - sbuk 2y ago
        So, something similar then. OK, not as onerous as removing the whole OS, which they can’t do because Android uses an open license, but the next big thing. No play store, no Google services. May as well remove the OS.
  - klez 2y ago
    > This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12 I'm on Android 14 here, shipped with Play Store by default. It still auto-updates apps.
    - Phrodo_00 2y ago
      Exclusivity hasn't been true. eg F-droid can auto update apps.
- thegeekpirate 2y ago
  That isn't true anymore, F-Droid for example auto-updates
- Phrodo_00 2y ago
  Ah, this is true, but it's weird consider this issue (that I agree google might be overstepping in) in a lawsuit that doesn't involve an affected OEM.
cmxch 2y ago
SafetyNet’s successor and effectively forced hardware attestation make devices designed for consumption, not development.
RevEng 2y ago
Many of the fundamental apps on Android, and the Play store itself, can only be used under license. Android OSP does not contain many things that you would expect to be part of Android. Also, most modern devices won't even let you flash your own OS, even a modified copy of Android. It's irrelevant if the source code is available if you can't actually run it anywhere. It's the TeVo case all over again.

For years, OEMs were made to install a number of Google apps onto the homescreen at predefined places. One of which is the Play Store. Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage, despite this kind of thing happening on non-Google hardware. Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. That's the only store that's allowed to do that. And while the tech community might like being able to control which apps auto-update, everyone wants some apps to be allowed to update without user interaction.

Izkata 2y ago
Speaking of OEMs (and non-Google Android in general), Google has moved some functionality from base Android into Google Play Services so some apps won't work unless you get that installed.
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  This is easily seen to be false, but I see it repeated often. The functionality in Google Play Services requires a server. If you don't use Google services, you don't need Play Services. https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages
  - _imnothere 2y ago
    Apparently you don't know enough about Android, a perfect example of this is eSIM, you simply couldn't use eSIM without Google Play Services.
    - lern_too_spel 2y ago
      That functionality was never available in phones with Google builds without Google Play Services, so it doesn't fit GGP's claim. The reason it's not in base AOSP out of the box is that it requires a server, and any carrier can build an implementation for downloading carrier profiles without Google Play Services and any OEM can build an LPA using https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview.
      - riversflow 2y ago
        You don’t have GPS satellite data, “location services” without Google Play services. That means a gps lock takes minutes. This data could be stored on the phone, but it’s better for google if you fetch it from them when you need it.
        lern_too_spel 2y ago
        Another example of something that was never in AOSP and so does not fit GGGGP's claim. You can still get your GPS location without Google Play Services exactly the same as you always could.
        vel0city 2y ago
        Sure, if apps choose to use those APIs you can still theoretically get a GPS fix. But tons of apps just use the Google Play Services APIs.
        immibis 2y ago
        And Google heavily pushes them to, to the point of (when I last made an android app years ago) automatically adding its libraries to your project every time you open the project, then giving compiler warnings if you use the old ones.
        yket645wykj 2y ago
        the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service gps satellite data comes from a supl server, and supl support is built in to aosp. now, unfortunately one of the most reliable supl data sources is google, but it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from (neither the request nor payload vary)
lern_too_spel 2y ago
> Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage Google incentivized the OEMs to do that. Amazon could have incentivized OEMs to do that also, but the business plan that Amazon pursued did not involve third parties building their own Kindle devices. > Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12, which I credit Epic for.
- sbuk 2y ago
  Microsoft also “incentivized” OEMs to not install competing browsers by threatening to remove their OEM licensing. Didn’t Google do something similar?
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    No. They just threatened to remove access to the Play Store.
    - sbuk 2y ago
      So, something similar then. OK, not as onerous as removing the whole OS, which they can’t do because Android uses an open license, but the next big thing. No play store, no Google services. May as well remove the OS.
- klez 2y ago
  > This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12 I'm on Android 14 here, shipped with Play Store by default. It still auto-updates apps.
  - Phrodo_00 2y ago
    Exclusivity hasn't been true. eg F-droid can auto update apps.
thegeekpirate 2y ago
That isn't true anymore, F-Droid for example auto-updates
Phrodo_00 2y ago
Ah, this is true, but it's weird consider this issue (that I agree google might be overstepping in) in a lawsuit that doesn't involve an affected OEM.

cmxch 2y ago

SafetyNet’s successor and effectively forced hardware attestation make devices designed for consumption, not development.

RevEng 2y ago

Many of the fundamental apps on Android, and the Play store itself, can only be used under license. Android OSP does not contain many things that you would expect to be part of Android. Also, most modern devices won't even let you flash your own OS, even a modified copy of Android. It's irrelevant if the source code is available if you can't actually run it anywhere. It's the TeVo case all over again.