3 ms·

Tell this to Russians.

CamperBob2 2y ago
Well, Hitler could have told them that, certainly. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about the UK or Ukraine... bombing civilians pisses them off and redoubles their commitment to the fight. It's a waste of munitions, because you'll never kill enough civilians to matter.
- hollerith 2y ago
  >you'll never kill enough civilians to matter. -- unless you use nukes.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Even then I question if you can do so. You can level your enemy perhaps, but if the enemy is the US or Russia they have provisions to end the whole world after you level all their cities and so you don't win. If it is anyone else they might not end the world themselves, but there are good odds many countries that otherwise hate each other will join together to destroy you because they don't going nuclear to be an option for the next country. (basic physics and engineering can build a nuclear bomb - it isn't easy, but several countries have proven it can be done and most suspect more would if it was cost effective - but since you can't use them in war it isn't cost effective so they don't)
    - hollerith 2y ago
      No one can "end the whole world" or bring about human extinction using nukes even if that were their explicit goal.
      - SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
        Industrial civilization can be ended using nukes. Too many interconnected supply chains would fail, including those needed to produce fertilizer for modern agriculture. Possibly most human and land animal life could be ended if enough ground burst bombs were used to maximize fallout. Destroying all life is extremely unlikely, e.g. deep-sea hydrothermal vent ecosystems, cave-dwelling life, bacteria, and more will survive even deliberate coordinated attempts by all nations to nuke as much as possible with ground detonations to maximize fallout. Destroying the Earth (a 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000-tonne ball of mostly iron) is not happening with nukes. When most people say "end the world" they mean "end modern civilization", not "make the planet Earth cease to be a body in hydrostatic equilibrium in orbit of Sol".
        hollerith 2y ago
        Nukes cannot be used to end industrial civilization, either. Nuclear planners have always planned to use many ground bursts: on hardened targets like command bunkers, but also to destroy communications networks. Specifically, a "landing station" where transoceanic cables make landfall or wherever there used to be a 5ESS switch (the locations of which are publicly known) is a great place to hit with a ground burst to destroy much of the nation's non-wireless communications infrastructure. Estimates during the end of the Cold War are that about half of CONUS's area would be covered with lethal levels of fallout from these expected ground bursts. I guess if the Russians and Chinese were deliberately trying to cover as much area as possible with lethal levels of fallout (which they wouldn't because it is not an effective plan) they could cover 70 or 80% -- if they had as many nukes and means to "deliver" them intercontinentally as the Soviets did, which the Russians don't unless they've been hiding them from US inspectors, but I consider it very unlikely that they could've managed that. And bomb fallout is very different from radioactive contamination from accidents at nuclear power plants: basically no area continues to have lethal levels of bomb fallout 4 weeks after the last bomb explodes. The method for decontaminating your house is to get up on a ladder and wash down your roof with a garden hose, then wash down all driveways and sidewalks. So, again, nukes cannot be used to end industrial civilization. Note that this means that if the US ever nukes Russia with everything it has, Russia would bounce back and would again be a military threat (whether that takes 3 years or 15 years I don't know) so it makes little sense to nuke Russia unless the US is going to follow up with a long-term occupation of Russia's ports and maybe some key transportation hubs. The USSR knew it had no chance to occupy US ports or occupy a substantial portion of US territory: their plan for followup was to grab the rest of the European plain, which includes most of Germany and all of northern France to the border with Spain.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        And bomb fallout is very different from the radioactive contamination from accidents at nuclear power plants: basically no area continues to have lethal levels of bomb fallout 4 weeks after the last bomb explodes. The method for decontaminating your house is to get up on a ladder and wash down your roof with a garden hose, then wash down all driveways and sidewalks. Assuming they all have enough supplies to shelter in place for 4 weeks. Sure, they do. Oh, and where does all that runoff go?
- oneshtein 2y ago
  Currently, it's Russia leveling their own Russian cities with guided bombs.

Well, Hitler could have told them that, certainly. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about the UK or Ukraine... bombing civilians pisses them off and redoubles their commitment to the fight. It's a waste of munitions, because you'll never kill enough civilians to matter.

hollerith 2y ago
>you'll never kill enough civilians to matter. -- unless you use nukes.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Even then I question if you can do so. You can level your enemy perhaps, but if the enemy is the US or Russia they have provisions to end the whole world after you level all their cities and so you don't win. If it is anyone else they might not end the world themselves, but there are good odds many countries that otherwise hate each other will join together to destroy you because they don't going nuclear to be an option for the next country. (basic physics and engineering can build a nuclear bomb - it isn't easy, but several countries have proven it can be done and most suspect more would if it was cost effective - but since you can't use them in war it isn't cost effective so they don't)
  - hollerith 2y ago
    No one can "end the whole world" or bring about human extinction using nukes even if that were their explicit goal.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
      Industrial civilization can be ended using nukes. Too many interconnected supply chains would fail, including those needed to produce fertilizer for modern agriculture. Possibly most human and land animal life could be ended if enough ground burst bombs were used to maximize fallout. Destroying all life is extremely unlikely, e.g. deep-sea hydrothermal vent ecosystems, cave-dwelling life, bacteria, and more will survive even deliberate coordinated attempts by all nations to nuke as much as possible with ground detonations to maximize fallout. Destroying the Earth (a 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000-tonne ball of mostly iron) is not happening with nukes. When most people say "end the world" they mean "end modern civilization", not "make the planet Earth cease to be a body in hydrostatic equilibrium in orbit of Sol".
      - hollerith 2y ago
        Nukes cannot be used to end industrial civilization, either. Nuclear planners have always planned to use many ground bursts: on hardened targets like command bunkers, but also to destroy communications networks. Specifically, a "landing station" where transoceanic cables make landfall or wherever there used to be a 5ESS switch (the locations of which are publicly known) is a great place to hit with a ground burst to destroy much of the nation's non-wireless communications infrastructure. Estimates during the end of the Cold War are that about half of CONUS's area would be covered with lethal levels of fallout from these expected ground bursts. I guess if the Russians and Chinese were deliberately trying to cover as much area as possible with lethal levels of fallout (which they wouldn't because it is not an effective plan) they could cover 70 or 80% -- if they had as many nukes and means to "deliver" them intercontinentally as the Soviets did, which the Russians don't unless they've been hiding them from US inspectors, but I consider it very unlikely that they could've managed that. And bomb fallout is very different from radioactive contamination from accidents at nuclear power plants: basically no area continues to have lethal levels of bomb fallout 4 weeks after the last bomb explodes. The method for decontaminating your house is to get up on a ladder and wash down your roof with a garden hose, then wash down all driveways and sidewalks. So, again, nukes cannot be used to end industrial civilization. Note that this means that if the US ever nukes Russia with everything it has, Russia would bounce back and would again be a military threat (whether that takes 3 years or 15 years I don't know) so it makes little sense to nuke Russia unless the US is going to follow up with a long-term occupation of Russia's ports and maybe some key transportation hubs. The USSR knew it had no chance to occupy US ports or occupy a substantial portion of US territory: their plan for followup was to grab the rest of the European plain, which includes most of Germany and all of northern France to the border with Spain.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        And bomb fallout is very different from the radioactive contamination from accidents at nuclear power plants: basically no area continues to have lethal levels of bomb fallout 4 weeks after the last bomb explodes. The method for decontaminating your house is to get up on a ladder and wash down your roof with a garden hose, then wash down all driveways and sidewalks. Assuming they all have enough supplies to shelter in place for 4 weeks. Sure, they do. Oh, and where does all that runoff go?
oneshtein 2y ago
Currently, it's Russia leveling their own Russian cities with guided bombs.