8 ms·

It’s so easy to just mindlessly want and consume until you see pictures like these. They show that although my streets are pristine, with everyone having the la

It’s so easy to just mindlessly want and consume until you see pictures like these. They show that although my streets are pristine, with everyone having the latest “stuff”, it’s really only possible because we sweep all of the “bad stuff” under the proverbial rug

paulcole 2y ago
> It’s so easy to just mindlessly want and consume until you see pictures like these It’s still incredibly easy. If you could magically make every person in the United States look at these photos for 30 minutes, nothing would change about how we live and consume. All that matters is that my streets are pristine.
- maeil 2y ago
  This is of course untrue, given that we know that there are people who have changed their behaviour after learning about realities through articles such as this one. And a huge percentage of people still haven't learned about them. In one's highly-educated HN-reading savvy bubble, it might be easy to assume that surely by now everyone knows the realities, has seen all of them, and if they behave a certain way it's simply due to the degree to which they care. I've been prone to such biases myself, but the truth is very different. Billions of people, including hundreds of millions in wealthy regions, still simply do not know about this. They genuinely do not know that e.g. plastic recycling is a fantasy. They have not seen these images. Of course, many have and just don't care as long as their streets are pristine - the people you're talking about very much exist. But there's even more people who are simply unaware. It's very easy to take a nihilist view that nothing matters, as it completely absolves oneself of any potential responsibility whatsoever. But it doesn't reflect reality.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    > It's very easy to take a nihilist view that nothing matters, as it completely absolves oneself of any potential responsibility whatsoever No! I actually do take personal responsibility by: • Living in a small apartment in a dense city • Never having driven a car - I never even learned to drive • Never flying in an airplane – last flight was 10+ years ago and have no plans to fly again • Eating a plant-based diet • Not ever having kids But I will concede that none of those things matter. > This is of course untrue, given that we know that there are people who have changed their behaviour after learning about realities through articles such as this one. That is neat! People in general will not change their behavior.
    - maeil 2y ago
      Commendable lifestyle! We live in almost the same way :) > That is neat! People in general will not change their behavior. Unless you rolled out of the womb with the plans to live in the manner you've described, there must at some point have been things that changed your behavior. Out of everyone living like you and me globally, the ones who have been raised by their parents to do so are a really tiny minority. I've lived on two opposite sides of the globe, and in both places they count for <1%. The rest of us has implemented lifestyle changes after being faced with realities.
      - paulcole 2y ago
        > Unless you rolled out of the womb with the plans to live in the manner you've described, there must at some point have been things that changed your behavior. Honestly probably just the result of having weird parents who didn’t discourage weird decisions by me as a kid. We lived in a small house (without air conditioning) in Florida and spent summers on an even smaller (and even hotter) wooden sailboat. So I was never afraid of doing things most people wouldn’t consider just to see what would happen. And even more honestly I just like living this way. If the Earth was cooling down and we had to warm the planet up by driving more or whatever I’d live the same way I do now because I like it. I wouldn’t care about doing the right thing for the planet. So I can’t fault the people who just like living a different way that happens to bad for the planet. They like their lives so let ‘em go nuts.
    - the_gorilla 2y ago
      >No! I actually do take personal responsibility by: None of these are taking responsibility. This is just a normal nihilistic life style being spun as meaningful behavior. You not having kids isn't making a sacrifice because there is no world in which you have kids.
      - paulcole 2y ago
        > You not having kids isn't making a sacrifice because there is no world in which you have kids. Can you point out where I said these things were a sacrifice? I actually don’t think any of those things are sacrifices — they all add to my quality of life. Obviously I have to guess on the kids thing and I can’t be 100% sure about the driving thing, but I’ve flown before and it sucks. I live in a smaller apartment now than I did when I was younger. I ate meat for decades. So I know the alternatives. > You not having kids isn't making a sacrifice because there is no world in which you have kids. Of course there is! I have just chosen to not make that world a reality. > This is just a normal nihilistic life style being spun as meaningful behavior Then the same can be said of somebody who says that eating meat and having kids is good? What lifestyle isn’t nihilistic by your definition?
  - yowzadave 2y ago
    I don't think GP is saying nothing matters, they are objecting to the idea that the way to make systemic change happen is to convince individuals to change personal behaviors through moral persuasion. We have, however, had some success at taking collective action; compare trying to convince individuals to make a moral decision not to use disposable technologies with a regulation that requires manufacturers to make their products repairable/recyclable/etc.
delfinom 2y ago
To be fair, part of the feel good for consume is the recycling centers in the west that are largely complete scams. Because they just aggregate the waste to ship to the third world for """"recycling""""
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  The West or America? I don't think we are in any way perfect in Europe but it does feel like we have a better handle on this stuff than the US.
  - andsoitis 2y ago
    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_Africa
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - delfinom 2y ago
    Europe is running the same scam as America. https://www.dw.com/en/activists-slam-europe-for-dumping-on-africa/a-61315412 https://www.dw.com/en/activists-slam-europe-for-dumping-on-a... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/07/uk-worst-offender-in-europe-for-electronic-waste-exports-report https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/07/uk-worst... The same way the dairy industry doesn't exist in Africa due to the EU. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a2sJz8G3fE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a2sJz8G3fE (DW Documentary) Africa has become a dumping ground for the Western world's problems while being wrapped up as feel good. Best summary of the problem https://issafrica.org/iss-today/despite-the-hazards-ghanas-illicit-waste-trade-is-booming https://issafrica.org/iss-today/despite-the-hazards-ghanas-i... >political science Professor at the University of Pisa in Italy, says: ‘If hazardous waste leaves European ports illegally, that’s because it’s easier to export illegally from [European ports] than to import to the European Union (EU).’ He says while Europeans control what enters their soil, ‘they don’t care very much about what is exported from their countries.’
artursapek 2y ago
This is why the “MKBHD” etc type youtubers who worship “new tech” and do unboxing videos have always bothered me.
- y-curious 2y ago
  Wait til you find out about disposable vaporizers people buy in the states, use up in a week, and throw out. Those don't even get a chance to be recycled, and they're a relatively complex electronic.
  - artursapek 2y ago
    I live in the US. Those are insane. I can’t believe how quickly they became normal. Not only will they definitely cause cancer, but they are a cancer on the planet too. And they’re marketed like toys.
    - ulrikrasmussen 2y ago
      From a health and harm reduction perspective they are probably saving lives by replacing cigarette smoke which is much more harmful. But I agree that from an environmental perspective they are much worse. Perfectly good Li-ion are thrown in the trash which is insane. I don't understand why people buy these. I don't vape, but it is my understanding that you can get reusable vapes with cartridges that are very easy to replace, and which are probably more enjoyable to use.
      - artursapek 2y ago
        We have no idea how their health effects compare to cigarettes, they're too new. People should just smoke pure tobacco (pipes, cigars) but those are too inconvenient.
        kortex 2y ago
        There's no world in which atomized nicotine, glycol/glycerin, and some flavors, is comparable, let alone worse, than inhaling smoldering tobacco leaves. Even the purest, organic tobacco made from the nicest leaves lovingly collected by happy family farmers, is still gonna give you cancer if you burn it and inhale the smoke. That's just chemistry. The only exception is if the vape juice contains something it "shouldn't", like the vitamin E acetate debacle, but if you put the same wrong things in tobacco, you get the same issue. This problem is avoided entirely with a verified source of ingredients. Partial combustion products will always contain, at minimum, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, a verified carcinogen. The hotter the conditions, the more complex the precursors, and the more incomplete the reaction is, the more nasty junk you will create. Vaping might or might not be bad, but the chemistries of smoking includes the full set of chemistries of vaping, and then way way more, due to the incomplete combustion of the much larger molecules in plant matter. Bottom line: probably don't put the volatile reaction products of substances heated above 100°C into your lungs: tobacco smoke, vape, campfire smoke, car exhaust, brake dust, etc. But some reactants are far worse than others.
piva00 2y ago
I can consume less, give new life to old electronics, etc. and seeing these pictures validates the feeling I have for it. At the same time it just makes me feel powerless, all the effort I go through to not make this problem bigger is all too small to have any effect, the powerlessness against the system is real. I can change my habits, advocate for others why I believe that's good but it all fall into deaf ears while the incentives are there to just consume, throw it away, rinse and repeat. It just makes me exhausted while not feeling I've helped to make the world any better, and in the end I still get flak from the mindless consumers if I bring this up as it's a damn boring subject to participate when one doesn't care about it.
- karles 2y ago
  Morally, caring is the only option. To many people don't value values or morals, and only prioritize their own experiences. I find it hard to maintain relationships with people who only talk about their career, business and consumption, as it is hard to have any kind of discussion about "we COULD, but SHOULD we" in regards to purchasing the latest car, iphone, a new house etc.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  One must cultivate one's own garden. You'll never change people. It makes me sad as well.
- will5421 2y ago
  An individual can't do the job of government.
bubaumba 2y ago
That's how it always was. People were eating only the best parts of the animal and dumping the rest. More over, the best is converted mostly to sh*t and dumped too. Fish do the same.
- consp 2y ago
  And because it always has been we should keep doing it no matter what. Also fish do it so it's a good excuse to do the same.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    I mean fish eat each other, so it's fine that you roasted that guy.
- TonyTrapp 2y ago
  No, that is a relatively recent development. There are many old recipes involving body parts of animals that many people no longer consider eating these days. Back then, as many parts of the animal were used for consumption or other use as possible.
  - bell-cot 2y ago
    My understanding is that the modern meatpacking industry is very efficient at turning those parts into sausages, highly-processed meat products, pet food, animal feed, and fertilizer.
- mbs159 2y ago
  > People were eating only the best parts of the animal and dumping the rest. That's not true. As recently as 50 years ago my relatives had pigs and they ate or otherwise used every single part of the animal, even the teeth, without throwing anything out. And they weren't poor, either. It was simply a mindset of utilizing what you have to the best of your ability.

paulcole 2y ago

> It’s so easy to just mindlessly want and consume until you see pictures like these It’s still incredibly easy. If you could magically make every person in the United States look at these photos for 30 minutes, nothing would change about how we live and consume. All that matters is that my streets are pristine.

maeil 2y ago
This is of course untrue, given that we know that there are people who have changed their behaviour after learning about realities through articles such as this one. And a huge percentage of people still haven't learned about them. In one's highly-educated HN-reading savvy bubble, it might be easy to assume that surely by now everyone knows the realities, has seen all of them, and if they behave a certain way it's simply due to the degree to which they care. I've been prone to such biases myself, but the truth is very different. Billions of people, including hundreds of millions in wealthy regions, still simply do not know about this. They genuinely do not know that e.g. plastic recycling is a fantasy. They have not seen these images. Of course, many have and just don't care as long as their streets are pristine - the people you're talking about very much exist. But there's even more people who are simply unaware. It's very easy to take a nihilist view that nothing matters, as it completely absolves oneself of any potential responsibility whatsoever. But it doesn't reflect reality.
- paulcole 2y ago
  > It's very easy to take a nihilist view that nothing matters, as it completely absolves oneself of any potential responsibility whatsoever No! I actually do take personal responsibility by: • Living in a small apartment in a dense city • Never having driven a car - I never even learned to drive • Never flying in an airplane – last flight was 10+ years ago and have no plans to fly again • Eating a plant-based diet • Not ever having kids But I will concede that none of those things matter. > This is of course untrue, given that we know that there are people who have changed their behaviour after learning about realities through articles such as this one. That is neat! People in general will not change their behavior.
  - maeil 2y ago
    Commendable lifestyle! We live in almost the same way :) > That is neat! People in general will not change their behavior. Unless you rolled out of the womb with the plans to live in the manner you've described, there must at some point have been things that changed your behavior. Out of everyone living like you and me globally, the ones who have been raised by their parents to do so are a really tiny minority. I've lived on two opposite sides of the globe, and in both places they count for <1%. The rest of us has implemented lifestyle changes after being faced with realities.
    - paulcole 2y ago
      > Unless you rolled out of the womb with the plans to live in the manner you've described, there must at some point have been things that changed your behavior. Honestly probably just the result of having weird parents who didn’t discourage weird decisions by me as a kid. We lived in a small house (without air conditioning) in Florida and spent summers on an even smaller (and even hotter) wooden sailboat. So I was never afraid of doing things most people wouldn’t consider just to see what would happen. And even more honestly I just like living this way. If the Earth was cooling down and we had to warm the planet up by driving more or whatever I’d live the same way I do now because I like it. I wouldn’t care about doing the right thing for the planet. So I can’t fault the people who just like living a different way that happens to bad for the planet. They like their lives so let ‘em go nuts.
  - the_gorilla 2y ago
    >No! I actually do take personal responsibility by: None of these are taking responsibility. This is just a normal nihilistic life style being spun as meaningful behavior. You not having kids isn't making a sacrifice because there is no world in which you have kids.
    - paulcole 2y ago
      > You not having kids isn't making a sacrifice because there is no world in which you have kids. Can you point out where I said these things were a sacrifice? I actually don’t think any of those things are sacrifices — they all add to my quality of life. Obviously I have to guess on the kids thing and I can’t be 100% sure about the driving thing, but I’ve flown before and it sucks. I live in a smaller apartment now than I did when I was younger. I ate meat for decades. So I know the alternatives. > You not having kids isn't making a sacrifice because there is no world in which you have kids. Of course there is! I have just chosen to not make that world a reality. > This is just a normal nihilistic life style being spun as meaningful behavior Then the same can be said of somebody who says that eating meat and having kids is good? What lifestyle isn’t nihilistic by your definition?
- yowzadave 2y ago
  I don't think GP is saying nothing matters, they are objecting to the idea that the way to make systemic change happen is to convince individuals to change personal behaviors through moral persuasion. We have, however, had some success at taking collective action; compare trying to convince individuals to make a moral decision not to use disposable technologies with a regulation that requires manufacturers to make their products repairable/recyclable/etc.

delfinom 2y ago

To be fair, part of the feel good for consume is the recycling centers in the west that are largely complete scams. Because they just aggregate the waste to ship to the third world for """"recycling""""

tonyedgecombe 2y ago
The West or America? I don't think we are in any way perfect in Europe but it does feel like we have a better handle on this stuff than the US.
- andsoitis 2y ago
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_Africa
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- delfinom 2y ago
  Europe is running the same scam as America. https://www.dw.com/en/activists-slam-europe-for-dumping-on-africa/a-61315412 https://www.dw.com/en/activists-slam-europe-for-dumping-on-a... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/07/uk-worst-offender-in-europe-for-electronic-waste-exports-report https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/07/uk-worst... The same way the dairy industry doesn't exist in Africa due to the EU. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a2sJz8G3fE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a2sJz8G3fE (DW Documentary) Africa has become a dumping ground for the Western world's problems while being wrapped up as feel good. Best summary of the problem https://issafrica.org/iss-today/despite-the-hazards-ghanas-illicit-waste-trade-is-booming https://issafrica.org/iss-today/despite-the-hazards-ghanas-i... >political science Professor at the University of Pisa in Italy, says: ‘If hazardous waste leaves European ports illegally, that’s because it’s easier to export illegally from [European ports] than to import to the European Union (EU).’ He says while Europeans control what enters their soil, ‘they don’t care very much about what is exported from their countries.’

artursapek 2y ago

This is why the “MKBHD” etc type youtubers who worship “new tech” and do unboxing videos have always bothered me.

y-curious 2y ago
Wait til you find out about disposable vaporizers people buy in the states, use up in a week, and throw out. Those don't even get a chance to be recycled, and they're a relatively complex electronic.
- artursapek 2y ago
  I live in the US. Those are insane. I can’t believe how quickly they became normal. Not only will they definitely cause cancer, but they are a cancer on the planet too. And they’re marketed like toys.
  - ulrikrasmussen 2y ago
    From a health and harm reduction perspective they are probably saving lives by replacing cigarette smoke which is much more harmful. But I agree that from an environmental perspective they are much worse. Perfectly good Li-ion are thrown in the trash which is insane. I don't understand why people buy these. I don't vape, but it is my understanding that you can get reusable vapes with cartridges that are very easy to replace, and which are probably more enjoyable to use.
    - artursapek 2y ago
      We have no idea how their health effects compare to cigarettes, they're too new. People should just smoke pure tobacco (pipes, cigars) but those are too inconvenient.
      - kortex 2y ago
        There's no world in which atomized nicotine, glycol/glycerin, and some flavors, is comparable, let alone worse, than inhaling smoldering tobacco leaves. Even the purest, organic tobacco made from the nicest leaves lovingly collected by happy family farmers, is still gonna give you cancer if you burn it and inhale the smoke. That's just chemistry. The only exception is if the vape juice contains something it "shouldn't", like the vitamin E acetate debacle, but if you put the same wrong things in tobacco, you get the same issue. This problem is avoided entirely with a verified source of ingredients. Partial combustion products will always contain, at minimum, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, a verified carcinogen. The hotter the conditions, the more complex the precursors, and the more incomplete the reaction is, the more nasty junk you will create. Vaping might or might not be bad, but the chemistries of smoking includes the full set of chemistries of vaping, and then way way more, due to the incomplete combustion of the much larger molecules in plant matter. Bottom line: probably don't put the volatile reaction products of substances heated above 100°C into your lungs: tobacco smoke, vape, campfire smoke, car exhaust, brake dust, etc. But some reactants are far worse than others.

piva00 2y ago

I can consume less, give new life to old electronics, etc. and seeing these pictures validates the feeling I have for it. At the same time it just makes me feel powerless, all the effort I go through to not make this problem bigger is all too small to have any effect, the powerlessness against the system is real. I can change my habits, advocate for others why I believe that's good but it all fall into deaf ears while the incentives are there to just consume, throw it away, rinse and repeat. It just makes me exhausted while not feeling I've helped to make the world any better, and in the end I still get flak from the mindless consumers if I bring this up as it's a damn boring subject to participate when one doesn't care about it.

karles 2y ago
Morally, caring is the only option. To many people don't value values or morals, and only prioritize their own experiences. I find it hard to maintain relationships with people who only talk about their career, business and consumption, as it is hard to have any kind of discussion about "we COULD, but SHOULD we" in regards to purchasing the latest car, iphone, a new house etc.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
One must cultivate one's own garden. You'll never change people. It makes me sad as well.
will5421 2y ago
An individual can't do the job of government.

bubaumba 2y ago

That's how it always was. People were eating only the best parts of the animal and dumping the rest. More over, the best is converted mostly to sh*t and dumped too. Fish do the same.

consp 2y ago
And because it always has been we should keep doing it no matter what. Also fish do it so it's a good excuse to do the same.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  I mean fish eat each other, so it's fine that you roasted that guy.
TonyTrapp 2y ago
No, that is a relatively recent development. There are many old recipes involving body parts of animals that many people no longer consider eating these days. Back then, as many parts of the animal were used for consumption or other use as possible.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  My understanding is that the modern meatpacking industry is very efficient at turning those parts into sausages, highly-processed meat products, pet food, animal feed, and fertilizer.
mbs159 2y ago
> People were eating only the best parts of the animal and dumping the rest. That's not true. As recently as 50 years ago my relatives had pigs and they ate or otherwise used every single part of the animal, even the teeth, without throwing anything out. And they weren't poor, either. It was simply a mindset of utilizing what you have to the best of your ability.