4 ms·

Calling the UK “England” is a different class of error, though. England is a part of the UK. Analogous would be calling the USA “Texas”. Calling the UK “Brit

by dleary 2y ago

Calling the UK “England” is a different class of error, though. England is a part of the UK. Analogous would be calling the USA “Texas”. Calling the UK “Britain” is a much more direct comparison. United States of America -> America United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland -> Britain

rgblambda 2y ago
It's not helped when England, Britain and United Kingdom have been viewed as interchangeable terms by UK politicians, famous writers and the general public. Boris Johnson: "If I am ever asked on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong and am simply ambling along and breathing God’s fresh air like any other freeborn Englishman..." Rupert Brooke: "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field That is for ever England."
- graemep 2y ago
  No, they are not used interchangeably, even in your examples. Johnson is giving London as an example of a place in the UK. It is a very apposite example because it is where any power the police are given would be used most heavily (as stop and search is). He is using the the phrase "freeborn Englishman" to evoke associations with the use of the phrase that is far older than the UK. The phrase in its literal sense also excludes women and serfs and I do not think Johnson is aiming for that. Brooke was writing a poem. He was evoking an effect and a particular sense of place and identify. "England" evokes different associations and and a different emotional response to "the united Kingdom". It is more local, and cosy, and has visual associations (the "English countryside" vs "the Scottish countryside" for example).
- RugnirViking 2y ago
  Both of these simply use the word england, they are not incorrect. Yes, some people are from a place called england, just like some people are from texas, and may write poetry or wax lyrical about how they like being from texas and what it means to them
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
  [Great] Britain is an island England is a country (part of Britain, together with Wales & Scotland) The United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland], is an alliance of countries. I'd hope that most citizens of the UK wouldn't regard these as interchangeable, and just because an Englishman waxes poetic about England doesn't mean he's unaware that it's part of the UK, etc.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    > The United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland], is an alliance of countries. No, it is not. The UK is ONE sovereign state/country, the rest are states/provinces/whatever, even tho some people living in this country might disagree and wish to separate themselves to become a full sovereign state.
    - HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
      You're right, of course about the UK. It seems that maybe the most accurate (and/or historically appropriate) label for England, Wales, Scotland, and I suppose Northern Ireland, are "non-sovereign countries", or more sloppily I guess the UK and England can both be called countries ("a country within a country") with the distinction implied.
standardUser 2y ago
No individual US state has anywhere near the economic, historic, political or social hegemony over the rest of the nation state as is seen with England in the UK. In a lot of contexts outside of the UK, saying "England" is completely comprehensible as meaning the UK, regardless of correctness. No one is going to say "England invaded Iraq" and be confused.
chihuahua 2y ago
Let's be logical about this: (United States of) America -> America (Federal Republic of) Germany -> Germany (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern) Ireland -> Ireland
throaway89 2y ago
England annexed Wales and Ireland and would have annexed Scotland if it didn't use marriage instead.
- thoroughburro 2y ago
  > would have annexed Scotland if it didn't use marriage instead Would have tried, perhaps.
  - throaway89 2y ago
    Im sure the Scots would have fought to the last Scotsman, but I think they would lose in the end.
Yeul 2y ago
The Netherlands is often called "Holland" which technically doesn't even exist anymore. But of course Dutch people don't really care what foreigners call the country, they can use whatever name they come up with it doesn't matter. Although it's nice that Germany gets it right. These kind of arguments speak to the fragile ego of some nations.

by dleary 2y ago

rgblambda 2y ago

It's not helped when England, Britain and United Kingdom have been viewed as interchangeable terms by UK politicians, famous writers and the general public. Boris Johnson: "If I am ever asked on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong and am simply ambling along and breathing God’s fresh air like any other freeborn Englishman..." Rupert Brooke: "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field That is for ever England."

graemep 2y ago
No, they are not used interchangeably, even in your examples. Johnson is giving London as an example of a place in the UK. It is a very apposite example because it is where any power the police are given would be used most heavily (as stop and search is). He is using the the phrase "freeborn Englishman" to evoke associations with the use of the phrase that is far older than the UK. The phrase in its literal sense also excludes women and serfs and I do not think Johnson is aiming for that. Brooke was writing a poem. He was evoking an effect and a particular sense of place and identify. "England" evokes different associations and and a different emotional response to "the united Kingdom". It is more local, and cosy, and has visual associations (the "English countryside" vs "the Scottish countryside" for example).
RugnirViking 2y ago
Both of these simply use the word england, they are not incorrect. Yes, some people are from a place called england, just like some people are from texas, and may write poetry or wax lyrical about how they like being from texas and what it means to them
HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
[Great] Britain is an island England is a country (part of Britain, together with Wales & Scotland) The United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland], is an alliance of countries. I'd hope that most citizens of the UK wouldn't regard these as interchangeable, and just because an Englishman waxes poetic about England doesn't mean he's unaware that it's part of the UK, etc.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  > The United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland], is an alliance of countries. No, it is not. The UK is ONE sovereign state/country, the rest are states/provinces/whatever, even tho some people living in this country might disagree and wish to separate themselves to become a full sovereign state.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
    You're right, of course about the UK. It seems that maybe the most accurate (and/or historically appropriate) label for England, Wales, Scotland, and I suppose Northern Ireland, are "non-sovereign countries", or more sloppily I guess the UK and England can both be called countries ("a country within a country") with the distinction implied.

standardUser 2y ago

No individual US state has anywhere near the economic, historic, political or social hegemony over the rest of the nation state as is seen with England in the UK. In a lot of contexts outside of the UK, saying "England" is completely comprehensible as meaning the UK, regardless of correctness. No one is going to say "England invaded Iraq" and be confused.

chihuahua 2y ago

Let's be logical about this: (United States of) America -> America (Federal Republic of) Germany -> Germany (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern) Ireland -> Ireland

throaway89 2y ago

England annexed Wales and Ireland and would have annexed Scotland if it didn't use marriage instead.

thoroughburro 2y ago
> would have annexed Scotland if it didn't use marriage instead Would have tried, perhaps.
- throaway89 2y ago
  Im sure the Scots would have fought to the last Scotsman, but I think they would lose in the end.

Yeul 2y ago

The Netherlands is often called "Holland" which technically doesn't even exist anymore. But of course Dutch people don't really care what foreigners call the country, they can use whatever name they come up with it doesn't matter. Although it's nice that Germany gets it right. These kind of arguments speak to the fragile ego of some nations.