7 ms·

Nintendo isn't just attacking emulators [video]

106 points by FleetAdmiralJa 2y ago

bagels 2y ago
Nintendo is getting YouTube to take down videos that feature footage generated from emulators.
3np 2y ago
Better source: Comment last week on /r/SBCGaming: https://safereddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_everyone_this_is_russ_from_retro_game_corps_i/ https://safereddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_ever... --- It appears that my suspicions are true, and that I am being specifically targeted by Nintendo. My recent Wii U video was taken down and I received a second copyright strike, even though this showcase video was no different than all of the tech demos and reviews I have made on this channel previously. I am still considering a counter claim under fair use, as the video was for educational use, transformative in nature, and had no effect on the market -- it was a demonstration of a console no longer for sale (even the Wii U eShop is closed, so the company itself has no means of earning revenue from Wii U sales). However, I am reluctant to open that can of worms with a multi-billion dollar corporation, as their next step would be to file legal action. At the very least this means I am going to change how I approach future videos. I will no longer show any Nintendo games on-screen, which is a shame because I love using those games for my hardware demonstrations. I don't know how that will play out when it comes to showing things like ESDE frontend themes that contain Nintendo characters, but for now I am going to focus on actual gameplay. I am also going through the videos I am working on and blurring out any Nintendo game content as a precaution, even innocuous content like NES games. Unfortunately this is going to delay some video releases -- my latest video should be up right now, but instead I have to re-edit and re-upload the video first. I know this is disappointing news, but with now two strikes on my channel, I don't really have any other choice except to adjust accordingly. Thanks for your understanding.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Here's the proper link: https://old.reddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_everyone_this_is_russ_from_retro_game_corps_i/ https://old.reddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_ever... I don't know what the fuck "safereddit.com" is, but it is an unnecessary layer of obfuscation when the literal source is right there.
  - pixelatedindex 2y ago
    Safereddit looks like a website that implemented a private front end called redlib: https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib Agree that we don’t need to add a layer of obfuscation but this seems to be a way to reduce telemetry captured by Reddit.
    - 3np 2y ago
      Yeah. More directly, their IP blocking has been ramping up. Any of the official domains are inaccessible for me without a proxy these days. I'd post the canonical link if I could access it.
  - stepupmakeup 2y ago
    It's necessary when using a VPN, Reddit blocked anonymous access a few months ago
- FMecha 2y ago
  >so the company itself has no means of earning revenue from Wii U sales Nintendo's de facto method to do this is to simply re-release them on Switch - though this only matters for first-party titles.
- ikari_pl 2y ago
  > I will no longer show any Nintendo games on-screen Wow, the best way to get to know a game before buying is now illegal.
JeremyMorgan 2y ago
I got a C&D from them 20+ years ago for hosting a ROM site. That's fair enough. I complied. But this seems ridiculous. What if they're plugging an 8-BIT NES to an adapter and into a capture card? The whole thing seems silly as I don't see it's costing them money. But it's their product they can do what they want.
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  > But it's their product they can do what they want. To the extent that we let them. There's no natural rights going on here, so theoretically (if you believe in democracy) we still get to decide how much power foreign companies have.
  - musicale 2y ago
    The US belongs to various international copyright conventions. The assumption is that countries will respect each others' copyrights. And the US currently has an extremely long copyright period, life of the author + 70 years. Some (Larry Lessig and others) have argued that this violates the constitution's establishment clause for copyright, but so far the supreme court disagrees, and copyright reform also seems dead in the legislative branch. (And on the executive side, the copyright office is not sympathetic, and international treaties also impede copyright reform.) But your thought experiment is interesting - suppose the US decides that Nintendo's copyrights no longer hold, and suppose that Japan decides that Microsoft's copyrights no longer hold? If it were only for old games and obsolete software, perhaps little would change. If it were for recent games/software, then I think it might change the incentives to localize games/software for other markets.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      A large part of the US economy depends on IP law, including copyright; they're not going to suddenly abandon it. They could, however, shorten the terms to much more reasonable lengths. It wouldn't hurt the US economy to shorten copyright terms to 50 years, for instance. If they shortened them to 30 years, it would have no real effect on the software industry, though Nintendo would be pissed. I don't think Microsoft would care much about people passing around copies of MS-DOS 3.3.
treflop 2y ago
Standard Nintendo behavior.
- vachina 2y ago
  I think they’re trying to prevent people from developing hardware alternatives to Nintendo Switch, next logical step after stable emulators. Which basically proves Nintendo has little to no moat apart from laws preventing their executables from being run elsewhere.
  - ronsor 2y ago
    So what you're saying is someone should grab a high-end SBC and 3D printer, and build a hardware alternative to the Nintendo Switch.
    - benoau 2y ago
      There's already a ton of options ranging from extremely powerful + expensive ROG Ally ~$800 to the Steam Deck ~$400 and much smaller/weaker Android and Linux handhelds like Retroid's products from ~$100 - $300. The PC handhelds actually run Switch games better than the Switch does. We're actually at a point where some Switch games will even run on smartphones.
      - ronsor 2y ago
        I wonder if Switch games could be run in a WINE-like environment.
        benoau 2y ago
        That would be fascinating!
  - FMecha 2y ago
    >I think they’re trying to prevent people from developing hardware alternatives to Nintendo Switch, next logical step after stable emulators. They waged war against Famiclones in the past - see NTDEC (which had trademarks involved, since NTDEC stands for "Nintendo Electronic Company") and Power Player Super Joy III cases. However, they did lose the PocketFami case (in Japan, mind you) due to patents expiring and the fact it does not come with built-in games.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: Ryujinx (Nintendo Switch emulator) has been removed from GitHub https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41711709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41711709
aurareturn 2y ago
I'm probably the only person on HN who sympathizes with Nintendo. I think the law should be stronger against internet piracy without hurting other freedom. Let's be real. I'm guessing only 1% will rip the ROM off their purchased cartridge and play on an emulator. The 99% will pirate games they never purchased.
- _imnothere 2y ago
  Either way your so called "piracy" helps preserve the games and keep them playable for much longer.
  - musicale 2y ago
    IIRC NES, SNES, and Game Boy cartridges have a battery for game saves that eventually needs to be replaced. The point is a good one though: can we preserve the games so that they'll be playable hundreds of years (or more?!) from now, much as we can still play tabletop games from antiquity (backgammon, 9 man morris, chess, mancala, go, senet, etc.?) Whether the cyborgs of the 25th century will still want to play Mario Kart is unknown however.
  - snowram 2y ago
    It does, and "preserving" Switch games that aren't even out yet doesn't constitute preservation. See Yuzu case where they specifically used leaked copies of Zelda games to make those compatible with the emulator, while accepting financial retribution. Sometimes the hypocrisy is just too blatent for companies not to care.
- musicale 2y ago
  The interesting question to me is how piracy (or unlicensed downloads) affects the company. In many cases, it seems like it has little effect at all. Are people really going to stop subscribing to Switch Online because NES ROMs are readily available for emulators? What I think might (?) have some impact on Nintendo is downloading Switch games for execution on competing handhelds like the Steam Deck.
  - 2y ago
benoau 2y ago
These days you can load up almost the entire history of gaming on a dozen different PC handhelds, choose from a thriving Android ecosystem of less-powerful but cheaper handhelds, and run emulators on iPhones and Android phones. Their walled garden is on the brink of ruin, unencumbered hardware and software have surpassed what they offer. I don't think it's existential yet but if they don't have a digital buffet ready for PC/Mac/iOS/Android then they are in real trouble IMHO.
- butterfly42069 2y ago
  Its definitely existential or they wouldn't be trying to nickle and dime everything related to them whilst squandering all their good will in the process.
- izacus 2y ago
  And the IP laws as they stand right now can kill off all of that software, especially with aggressive addition of DRM and private stores which police existence of these kind of perservation efforts. Remember that Apple had to be forced to even think about allowing emulators on their platforms by the EU and even then they aggressively block Americans from being able to access them.
  - komali2 2y ago
    > And the IP laws as they stand right now can kill off all of that software Right but laws are only as good as their capability to enforce. If I were to start an emulation project today I would mask my identity and try to do a better job of it than the silk road guy. It's a shame ryujinx and yuzu were functionality killed when Nintendo got to the founding developers. There's contributions from other devs but I guess like with a lot of FOSS there's often just one person upon which the entire stack survives. Maybe the biggest projects like Linux and python can survive without their BDL's, but these emulators certainly haven't been able to, and that makes me sad. I would love to take up the mantle of one of these but I don't know the first thing about emulation programming.
    - 2y ago
mbix77 2y ago
I'll never buy another Nintendo game or console again.
- nubinetwork 2y ago
  Everyone says that, but I don't see them struggling to sell consoles...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Nintendo is getting YouTube to take down videos that feature footage generated from emulators.

3np 2y ago

Better source: Comment last week on /r/SBCGaming: https://safereddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_everyone_this_is_russ_from_retro_game_corps_i/ https://safereddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_ever... --- It appears that my suspicions are true, and that I am being specifically targeted by Nintendo. My recent Wii U video was taken down and I received a second copyright strike, even though this showcase video was no different than all of the tech demos and reviews I have made on this channel previously. I am still considering a counter claim under fair use, as the video was for educational use, transformative in nature, and had no effect on the market -- it was a demonstration of a console no longer for sale (even the Wii U eShop is closed, so the company itself has no means of earning revenue from Wii U sales). However, I am reluctant to open that can of worms with a multi-billion dollar corporation, as their next step would be to file legal action. At the very least this means I am going to change how I approach future videos. I will no longer show any Nintendo games on-screen, which is a shame because I love using those games for my hardware demonstrations. I don't know how that will play out when it comes to showing things like ESDE frontend themes that contain Nintendo characters, but for now I am going to focus on actual gameplay. I am also going through the videos I am working on and blurring out any Nintendo game content as a precaution, even innocuous content like NES games. Unfortunately this is going to delay some video releases -- my latest video should be up right now, but instead I have to re-edit and re-upload the video first. I know this is disappointing news, but with now two strikes on my channel, I don't really have any other choice except to adjust accordingly. Thanks for your understanding.

Dalewyn 2y ago
Here's the proper link: https://old.reddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_everyone_this_is_russ_from_retro_game_corps_i/ https://old.reddit.com/r/SBCGaming/comments/1frjcaa/hey_ever... I don't know what the fuck "safereddit.com" is, but it is an unnecessary layer of obfuscation when the literal source is right there.
- pixelatedindex 2y ago
  Safereddit looks like a website that implemented a private front end called redlib: https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib Agree that we don’t need to add a layer of obfuscation but this seems to be a way to reduce telemetry captured by Reddit.
  - 3np 2y ago
    Yeah. More directly, their IP blocking has been ramping up. Any of the official domains are inaccessible for me without a proxy these days. I'd post the canonical link if I could access it.
- stepupmakeup 2y ago
  It's necessary when using a VPN, Reddit blocked anonymous access a few months ago
FMecha 2y ago
>so the company itself has no means of earning revenue from Wii U sales Nintendo's de facto method to do this is to simply re-release them on Switch - though this only matters for first-party titles.
ikari_pl 2y ago
> I will no longer show any Nintendo games on-screen Wow, the best way to get to know a game before buying is now illegal.

JeremyMorgan 2y ago

I got a C&D from them 20+ years ago for hosting a ROM site. That's fair enough. I complied. But this seems ridiculous. What if they're plugging an 8-BIT NES to an adapter and into a capture card? The whole thing seems silly as I don't see it's costing them money. But it's their product they can do what they want.

the_gorilla 2y ago
> But it's their product they can do what they want. To the extent that we let them. There's no natural rights going on here, so theoretically (if you believe in democracy) we still get to decide how much power foreign companies have.
- musicale 2y ago
  The US belongs to various international copyright conventions. The assumption is that countries will respect each others' copyrights. And the US currently has an extremely long copyright period, life of the author + 70 years. Some (Larry Lessig and others) have argued that this violates the constitution's establishment clause for copyright, but so far the supreme court disagrees, and copyright reform also seems dead in the legislative branch. (And on the executive side, the copyright office is not sympathetic, and international treaties also impede copyright reform.) But your thought experiment is interesting - suppose the US decides that Nintendo's copyrights no longer hold, and suppose that Japan decides that Microsoft's copyrights no longer hold? If it were only for old games and obsolete software, perhaps little would change. If it were for recent games/software, then I think it might change the incentives to localize games/software for other markets.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    A large part of the US economy depends on IP law, including copyright; they're not going to suddenly abandon it. They could, however, shorten the terms to much more reasonable lengths. It wouldn't hurt the US economy to shorten copyright terms to 50 years, for instance. If they shortened them to 30 years, it would have no real effect on the software industry, though Nintendo would be pissed. I don't think Microsoft would care much about people passing around copies of MS-DOS 3.3.

treflop 2y ago

Standard Nintendo behavior.

vachina 2y ago
I think they’re trying to prevent people from developing hardware alternatives to Nintendo Switch, next logical step after stable emulators. Which basically proves Nintendo has little to no moat apart from laws preventing their executables from being run elsewhere.
- ronsor 2y ago
  So what you're saying is someone should grab a high-end SBC and 3D printer, and build a hardware alternative to the Nintendo Switch.
  - benoau 2y ago
    There's already a ton of options ranging from extremely powerful + expensive ROG Ally ~$800 to the Steam Deck ~$400 and much smaller/weaker Android and Linux handhelds like Retroid's products from ~$100 - $300. The PC handhelds actually run Switch games better than the Switch does. We're actually at a point where some Switch games will even run on smartphones.
    - ronsor 2y ago
      I wonder if Switch games could be run in a WINE-like environment.
      - benoau 2y ago
        That would be fascinating!
- FMecha 2y ago
  >I think they’re trying to prevent people from developing hardware alternatives to Nintendo Switch, next logical step after stable emulators. They waged war against Famiclones in the past - see NTDEC (which had trademarks involved, since NTDEC stands for "Nintendo Electronic Company") and Power Player Super Joy III cases. However, they did lose the PocketFami case (in Japan, mind you) due to patents expiring and the fact it does not come with built-in games.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related: Ryujinx (Nintendo Switch emulator) has been removed from GitHub https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41711709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41711709

aurareturn 2y ago

I'm probably the only person on HN who sympathizes with Nintendo. I think the law should be stronger against internet piracy without hurting other freedom. Let's be real. I'm guessing only 1% will rip the ROM off their purchased cartridge and play on an emulator. The 99% will pirate games they never purchased.

_imnothere 2y ago
Either way your so called "piracy" helps preserve the games and keep them playable for much longer.
- musicale 2y ago
  IIRC NES, SNES, and Game Boy cartridges have a battery for game saves that eventually needs to be replaced. The point is a good one though: can we preserve the games so that they'll be playable hundreds of years (or more?!) from now, much as we can still play tabletop games from antiquity (backgammon, 9 man morris, chess, mancala, go, senet, etc.?) Whether the cyborgs of the 25th century will still want to play Mario Kart is unknown however.
- snowram 2y ago
  It does, and "preserving" Switch games that aren't even out yet doesn't constitute preservation. See Yuzu case where they specifically used leaked copies of Zelda games to make those compatible with the emulator, while accepting financial retribution. Sometimes the hypocrisy is just too blatent for companies not to care.
musicale 2y ago
The interesting question to me is how piracy (or unlicensed downloads) affects the company. In many cases, it seems like it has little effect at all. Are people really going to stop subscribing to Switch Online because NES ROMs are readily available for emulators? What I think might (?) have some impact on Nintendo is downloading Switch games for execution on competing handhelds like the Steam Deck.
- 2y ago

benoau 2y ago

These days you can load up almost the entire history of gaming on a dozen different PC handhelds, choose from a thriving Android ecosystem of less-powerful but cheaper handhelds, and run emulators on iPhones and Android phones. Their walled garden is on the brink of ruin, unencumbered hardware and software have surpassed what they offer. I don't think it's existential yet but if they don't have a digital buffet ready for PC/Mac/iOS/Android then they are in real trouble IMHO.

butterfly42069 2y ago
Its definitely existential or they wouldn't be trying to nickle and dime everything related to them whilst squandering all their good will in the process.
izacus 2y ago
And the IP laws as they stand right now can kill off all of that software, especially with aggressive addition of DRM and private stores which police existence of these kind of perservation efforts. Remember that Apple had to be forced to even think about allowing emulators on their platforms by the EU and even then they aggressively block Americans from being able to access them.
- komali2 2y ago
  > And the IP laws as they stand right now can kill off all of that software Right but laws are only as good as their capability to enforce. If I were to start an emulation project today I would mask my identity and try to do a better job of it than the silk road guy. It's a shame ryujinx and yuzu were functionality killed when Nintendo got to the founding developers. There's contributions from other devs but I guess like with a lot of FOSS there's often just one person upon which the entire stack survives. Maybe the biggest projects like Linux and python can survive without their BDL's, but these emulators certainly haven't been able to, and that makes me sad. I would love to take up the mantle of one of these but I don't know the first thing about emulation programming.
  - 2y ago

mbix77 2y ago

I'll never buy another Nintendo game or console again.

nubinetwork 2y ago
Everyone says that, but I don't see them struggling to sell consoles...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]