8 ms·

Sorry Jeff. The only thing broken with PHP is you (and other people like you). How much PHP do you use Jeff? Lets assume none. How is PHP hurting you? I mean s

by bobsy 14y ago

Sorry Jeff. The only thing broken with PHP is you (and other people like you). How much PHP do you use Jeff? Lets assume none. How is PHP hurting you? I mean seriously, how much contact do you even have with PHP? PHP is easy to learn, easy to make websites with. There are a tonne of paying jobs which require PHP. PHP runs a lot of websites. I am a PHP developer. I prefer Python but my PHP job pays me just fine. There are a lot of things about PHP that I don't like but it gets the job done just fine. You can write reasonable code with PHP. You can write secure code with PHP. The main people who have problems with PHP are either ex-PHP developers who usually have gone on to Ruby and look back and fire a few shots at PHP. Or people like Jeff Atwood. Undeniably smart and talented programmers who for some reason are irked by the mere existence of PHP. Please get over yourself.

scribu 14y ago
Hey, at least he's not just ranting like everyone else; he's trying to bring forward a better alternative. I'm also a PHP dev and I think Python is the safest bet, since it has good support on all platforms already (including Windows).
- dasil003 14y ago
  It read like a pretty vanilla rant to me.
  - mavroprovato 14y ago
    Probably because you did not read the last part of the article where he says that he's trying to build a better alternative.
    - dasil003 14y ago
      Except I did. I read every word.
- RobAley 14y ago
  He started with a highly contentious premise that he declared as fact. Many, like me, disagree with that premise, and so consider that he is at best trying to fix a problem that either doesn't exist or doesn't require a drastic fix like he proposes, or at worst is very cleverly tapping into a vein of contention to hype an up-coming product. The thing is, with those who do genuinely rant against PHP, at least we can have a useful debate with them over the issues. The "PHP is rubbish" posts that feature here regularly almost always lay out their arguments and basis for coming to that conclusion, from which useful (if sometimes repetitive!) discussion can ensue. I think that the better alternatives, in the general case, are to participate in (or even fork) PHP and bring about the change together.
  - scribu 14y ago
    Very well put.
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  So, a couple sentences admonishing the masses to write something better plus one oblique reference to him "trying like hell to make it happen" equals "trying to bring forward a better alternative"? Show me the fucking code, Jeff.
kev009 14y ago
The "problem" is that PHP's popularity breeds more popularity, uninformed choice, and single-language programmers that only know PHP (a real tragedy!). Bashing PHP is in a serious sense a public service if it can reduce any of these outcomes.
- troels 14y ago
  So, the problem with PHP is that it is popular? I guess it was the same crime that Java committed 10 years ago. And C++ before that. Makes sense - There's definitely a pattern of bashing the popular languages.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    The problem isn't that it's popular - television programs about Bigfoot are popular, too. The problem is that PHP is extremely useful and easy to use in addition to being widely used. Reading the article, I was struck by its similarity in structure and language to classic Windows bashing rants of the past two decades - i.e. "the problem with PHP is that it has no taste." In fairness, the call to action is radically different; to build rather than to buy something.
    - troels 14y ago
      Well, I doubt it would ever become popular if it wasn't useful and easy to use. Actually, I think it is exactly because it's popular. All languages have odd ends, but you rarely hear people rant over Pythons lack of lambdas and weird explicit "self" parameter or Ruby's incomprehensible scoping rules. I'm betting that once they fall out of fashion, we will. And no, I disagree. The main sentiment of the article is negative. It's a call to figure out how to dethrone PHP, but without telling us why this would be such an important goal.
      - brudgers 14y ago
        >"Well, I doubt it would ever become popular if it wasn't useful and easy to use." Like Windows 3.1?
gaius 14y ago
You see, once they learn Ruby, they're "rockstar ninjas" and can't wait to tell everyone.
louischatriot 14y ago
It's true that PHP gets the job done, that it's easy to learn and very easy to set up. This makes for a perfect "introduction to the web" language. Which is why I began developping websites with it. But at some point, I felt like it was preventing me from really understanding what was going on behind the scenes, and I moved away from GRails and now nodejs. I don't hate PHP but I think Jeff's last point is good: we need framework as easy to learn and setup, but that lets you understand how the web really works.
- Maascamp 14y ago
  I'm sorry, you switched from writing your backend in PHP to writing it in Javascript because you believe Javascript let's you more fully understand what's going on behind the scenes? I'm quite curious as to your understanding of how the web really works.
billpatrianakos 14y ago
"I prefer Python". Why did you say that? To me it feels like you said it do people would take you seriously as a "real" developer. Because surely a "real" developer wouldn't actually enjoy using PHP or use it unless they were forced, right? I agree with your point and I just wanted to add that the fact that we have to add in little details like "I prefer Python" just to be taken seriously says more about hacker elitism than it does about PHP.
- batista 14y ago
  Or he said it because he does prefer Python. Thought of that, Sherlock? Or should I say Bekas?
- dberg 14y ago
  damn, that was spot on.
- polyfractal 14y ago
  "I walk to work because there are no bike paths, but I prefer biking." Why did you say that? To me it feels like you said it so people would take you seriously as a "real" biker. Because surely a "real" biker wouldn't actually enjoy walking unless they were forced, right?
- bobsy 14y ago
  I get what you are saying, I didn't add this to be taken seriously. I am not bothered if I am taken seriously or not. I had an opinion which I couldn't keep to myself. Upvote / downvote / flag and ban the account. I am not massively bothered. I do genuinely prefer Python. I picked it up when Django first started making noise and I really enjoyed working with Python (not so much Django). Now I mainly use Python to mess around with PyGame. Its not a difficult to thing to say. For all of PHP's ease there are little niggles which get you down. Really simple things. Is a function called functionname or function_name. Is it ($needle, $haystack) or ($haystack, $needle). Python is neater and I like neat.
andreasvc 14y ago
I don't have to deal with PHP directly but to me it just doesn't feel right when for example you learn about financial websites being built in PHP (as in an HN submission the other day). All these strings being accidentally treated as integers or floats and vice versa, without a decent way of handling errors, it feels like building a skyscraper on a fault line and not worrying about making it earthquake proof. Even if I'll never have to set foot in it, I'll still complain.

by bobsy 14y ago

scribu 14y ago

Hey, at least he's not just ranting like everyone else; he's trying to bring forward a better alternative. I'm also a PHP dev and I think Python is the safest bet, since it has good support on all platforms already (including Windows).

dasil003 14y ago
It read like a pretty vanilla rant to me.
- mavroprovato 14y ago
  Probably because you did not read the last part of the article where he says that he's trying to build a better alternative.
  - dasil003 14y ago
    Except I did. I read every word.
RobAley 14y ago
He started with a highly contentious premise that he declared as fact. Many, like me, disagree with that premise, and so consider that he is at best trying to fix a problem that either doesn't exist or doesn't require a drastic fix like he proposes, or at worst is very cleverly tapping into a vein of contention to hype an up-coming product. The thing is, with those who do genuinely rant against PHP, at least we can have a useful debate with them over the issues. The "PHP is rubbish" posts that feature here regularly almost always lay out their arguments and basis for coming to that conclusion, from which useful (if sometimes repetitive!) discussion can ensue. I think that the better alternatives, in the general case, are to participate in (or even fork) PHP and bring about the change together.
- scribu 14y ago
  Very well put.
fusiongyro 14y ago
So, a couple sentences admonishing the masses to write something better plus one oblique reference to him "trying like hell to make it happen" equals "trying to bring forward a better alternative"? Show me the fucking code, Jeff.

kev009 14y ago

The "problem" is that PHP's popularity breeds more popularity, uninformed choice, and single-language programmers that only know PHP (a real tragedy!). Bashing PHP is in a serious sense a public service if it can reduce any of these outcomes.

troels 14y ago
So, the problem with PHP is that it is popular? I guess it was the same crime that Java committed 10 years ago. And C++ before that. Makes sense - There's definitely a pattern of bashing the popular languages.
- brudgers 14y ago
  The problem isn't that it's popular - television programs about Bigfoot are popular, too. The problem is that PHP is extremely useful and easy to use in addition to being widely used. Reading the article, I was struck by its similarity in structure and language to classic Windows bashing rants of the past two decades - i.e. "the problem with PHP is that it has no taste." In fairness, the call to action is radically different; to build rather than to buy something.
  - troels 14y ago
    Well, I doubt it would ever become popular if it wasn't useful and easy to use. Actually, I think it is exactly because it's popular. All languages have odd ends, but you rarely hear people rant over Pythons lack of lambdas and weird explicit "self" parameter or Ruby's incomprehensible scoping rules. I'm betting that once they fall out of fashion, we will. And no, I disagree. The main sentiment of the article is negative. It's a call to figure out how to dethrone PHP, but without telling us why this would be such an important goal.
    - brudgers 14y ago
      >"Well, I doubt it would ever become popular if it wasn't useful and easy to use." Like Windows 3.1?

gaius 14y ago

You see, once they learn Ruby, they're "rockstar ninjas" and can't wait to tell everyone.

louischatriot 14y ago

It's true that PHP gets the job done, that it's easy to learn and very easy to set up. This makes for a perfect "introduction to the web" language. Which is why I began developping websites with it. But at some point, I felt like it was preventing me from really understanding what was going on behind the scenes, and I moved away from GRails and now nodejs. I don't hate PHP but I think Jeff's last point is good: we need framework as easy to learn and setup, but that lets you understand how the web really works.

Maascamp 14y ago
I'm sorry, you switched from writing your backend in PHP to writing it in Javascript because you believe Javascript let's you more fully understand what's going on behind the scenes? I'm quite curious as to your understanding of how the web really works.

billpatrianakos 14y ago

"I prefer Python". Why did you say that? To me it feels like you said it do people would take you seriously as a "real" developer. Because surely a "real" developer wouldn't actually enjoy using PHP or use it unless they were forced, right? I agree with your point and I just wanted to add that the fact that we have to add in little details like "I prefer Python" just to be taken seriously says more about hacker elitism than it does about PHP.

batista 14y ago
Or he said it because he does prefer Python. Thought of that, Sherlock? Or should I say Bekas?
dberg 14y ago
damn, that was spot on.
polyfractal 14y ago
"I walk to work because there are no bike paths, but I prefer biking." Why did you say that? To me it feels like you said it so people would take you seriously as a "real" biker. Because surely a "real" biker wouldn't actually enjoy walking unless they were forced, right?
bobsy 14y ago
I get what you are saying, I didn't add this to be taken seriously. I am not bothered if I am taken seriously or not. I had an opinion which I couldn't keep to myself. Upvote / downvote / flag and ban the account. I am not massively bothered. I do genuinely prefer Python. I picked it up when Django first started making noise and I really enjoyed working with Python (not so much Django). Now I mainly use Python to mess around with PyGame. Its not a difficult to thing to say. For all of PHP's ease there are little niggles which get you down. Really simple things. Is a function called functionname or function_name. Is it ($needle, $haystack) or ($haystack, $needle). Python is neater and I like neat.

andreasvc 14y ago

I don't have to deal with PHP directly but to me it just doesn't feel right when for example you learn about financial websites being built in PHP (as in an HN submission the other day). All these strings being accidentally treated as integers or floats and vice versa, without a decent way of handling errors, it feels like building a skyscraper on a fault line and not worrying about making it earthquake proof. Even if I'll never have to set foot in it, I'll still complain.