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Henry George’s Progress & Poverty conducted what can only be described as a coup on my worldview, and I am not alone in that experience. It is an incredible ar

Henry George’s Progress & Poverty conducted what can only be described as a coup on my worldview, and I am not alone in that experience. It is an incredible argument that will just utterly transform how you understand a walk down the street. If you’ve been seeing references to the Land Value Tax (LVT) here on HN, this is the book that originated the concept. Like most conceptual breakthroughs, it didn’t emerge solely from George with no related ideas in the vicinity, but this is definitely “the book” behind it.

illwrks 2y ago
In a similar vein, when I first got an e-reader I downloaded the old English version of Adam Smiths The Wealth of Nations. It was eye opening. While I’ve forgotten a large amount of the detail the overall themes are embedded in my mind.
- djsavvy 2y ago
  How is Wealth of Nations surprising for a modern reader? My (perhaps incorrect) intuition is that these sorts of old foundational books tend not to be too surprising because their ideas have permeated society already, which is why I’m curious to hear your take.
  - morbicer 2y ago
    Someone might not expect sth like this from the "father of capitalism" “As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed and demand a rent even for its natural produce.”
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Yep, Smith and Ricardo both recognized that land is unlike all other forms of capital.
  - throw0101b 2y ago
    > How is Wealth of Nations surprising for a modern reader? Most people haven't read it, and tend to only reference things like "invisible hand", and skim/skip over a lot of Smith's 'moralizing'. His book before Wealth was after all The Theory of Moral Sentiments: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Moral_Sentiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Moral_Sentiments If you don't want to read Ye Olde English, perhaps see Glory Liu's book Adam Smith’s America: > Drawing on a trove of illuminating archival materials, Liu tells the story of how an unassuming Scottish philosopher captured the American imagination and played a leading role in shaping American economic and political ideas. She shows how Smith became known as the father of political economy in the nineteenth century and was firmly associated with free trade, and how, in the aftermath of the Great Depression, the Chicago School of Economics transformed him into the preeminent theorist of self-interest and the miracle of free markets. Liu explores how a new generation of political theorists and public intellectuals has sought to recover Smith’s original intentions and restore his reputation as a moral philosopher. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60015569-adam-smith-s-america https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60015569-adam-smith-s-am... Interview: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbQjDpUfJrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbQjDpUfJrs She goes into the "Adam Smith Problem"; one paper on it: > Adam Smith is best known for his economic theories that extoll the free market and individual self-interest. These ideas are the focus of Smith's second book, The Wealth of Nations. However, Smith also made large contributions to the fields of ethics and moral philosophy. Nearly 20 years prior to the publication of The Wealth of Nations, Smith first became a renowned moral philosopher when he published The Theory of Moral Sentiments. In The Theory of Moral Sentiments, Smith outlines the nature of morality. This morality, for Smith, places an emphasis upon sympathy and compassion, which are felt by imagining the plight of others through the impartial spectator. This impartial spectator is a mode of thinking that allows for one to adjudge the actions of others in relation to society's general attitudes toward that said action. Despite Smith's consummate rumination in both books, there seems to be a disconnect between Smith's moral philosophy, found within The Theory of Moral Sentiments, and his economic philosophy, found within The Wealth of Nations. How can Smith eulogize compassion and fellow feeling in one writing, while also holding that self-interest is necessary for the advancement of society in another? This disconnect is known as the Adam Smith Problem. The purpose of this project is to acknowledge the existence of The Adam Smith Problem by seeing it not as an attempt to undermine Smith's intellectual continuity, but as a challenge to reconcile the self-interested nature of humanity with higher moral standards accomplished through compassion. This reconciliation is accomplished through the notion of a liberal society in which an individual is both free to do anything that does not harm another and can expect society to maintain a higher set of moral standards through a justice system. Both wealth proliferation through self-interest and the upholding of higher values through compassion are predicates of this liberal society: the culmination of Smith's philosophy. * https://quod.lib.umich.edu/u/umurj/16481002.0014.007/--adam-smith-problem-integrating-self-interest-with-justice?rgn=main;view=fulltext https://quod.lib.umich.edu/u/umurj/16481002.0014.007/--adam-...
  - illwrks 2y ago
    It was eye opening to me at that point in my life as I hadn’t given too much thought to the detail in the world around me, in my own life and the economy. It was a strange experience to read ye-olde-English that outlined observations that still apply today. To simplify it, in my mind it was like going to the moon (boring old economics book) and discovering someone else’s flag (we beat you to it, and everything we explain is still relevant)
  - trod123 2y ago
    The biggest benefit from this book is it makes a large number of observations of the time period which is then distilled into rational first principles which can be used by others and makes it available in an easily read format. The observations can also be correlated with subsequent changes to give us a better understanding of how things work and progressed, as well as potentially destructive changes we've made moving forward to our systems of organization. The transition to Fiat currency, or taxation for example, I have no doubt, will eventually provoke a study and comparison as to why inflationary currencies should never be adopted, or only with severe restrictions. There are many concepts found in the book which are correct, there are several which are also very flawed and dated. Labor Value Theorem for example has been rigorously disproven as a viable framework through Menger, Hayek, and Mises (iirc). A society which has no education on these subjects is ill equipped to have to direct policy, or hold policy makers accountable for destructive actions (which may take years, decades, or sometimes half a century, in their cyclical actions). The first required step to correcting a problem is in being alerted to the fact that there is a problem, and societally we've really screwed this up with the advent of social media (many:1 platforms that drown out useful signals). Feedback systems that can no longer respond to correct stimulus are broken systems just waiting for the right circumstances for calamity.
andrepd 2y ago
An economic thinker that can garner praise from democratic socialists like Einstein to neoliberal ghouls like Milton Friedman has to have something going for it. It's transformed my worldview as well, if nothing else by underlining that free markets and capitalism are not the same thing at all.
wakawaka28 2y ago
Taxing land is definitely not a revolutionary concept. What made George famous is that he wrote a manifesto that blamed the "rich" land owners for all the ills of society, and proposed that solving the problem would be as simple as levying another tax. It sounds good but has little substance or relation to actual economics.
- slwvx 2y ago
  I'd prefer a more substantive critique than an ad-hominem statement
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    That is not an ad hominem statement. It is an opinion about how overblown the idea is and why George is famous for it. Some property tax is probably a good idea. Does this dude deserve credit for the idea? No. Is he right in asserting that all poverty results from a lack of access to land? No. Will property tax make the economy go brrr? No. The idea of choosing the uses of land by taxing the hell out of random entities just because you think have the money to pay for it is tantamount to communism. I'm not about to read a whole book on the supposed revolutionary merits of property tax, thank you very much.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Oh yeah, now that I got to this comment of yours… it’s very evident you haven’t read it by your (honestly, I don’t say this just to be insulting) downright cartoonish misunderstanding of its contents. Even more impressive, it’s obvious you haven’t even read a decent critique or summary of it. You should consider it! There’s a reason for its stature :)
      - wakawaka28 2y ago
        I disagree. I listened to an hour long, glowing summary of it and read about it on Wikipedia. It is just not convincing to me. The only thing cartoonish is how hard people praise it, considering we already have property taxes much like George wanted, which are often quite high and don't add to the economy. Property taxes like that are very close to communism, especially if you take it to an extreme. The higher the taxes, the less you actually own anything. I have also had the displeasure of arguing with someone who thinks Henry George had the right idea. The dude was literally defending the communist Chinese "property" model which is just a 70 year lease from the government. Calling my view extreme is like saying that an atheist is religious. Just because I don't accept this idea and all the ensuing conclusions, does not make my views extreme or unreasonable, much less "cartoonish"...

illwrks 2y ago

In a similar vein, when I first got an e-reader I downloaded the old English version of Adam Smiths The Wealth of Nations. It was eye opening. While I’ve forgotten a large amount of the detail the overall themes are embedded in my mind.

djsavvy 2y ago
How is Wealth of Nations surprising for a modern reader? My (perhaps incorrect) intuition is that these sorts of old foundational books tend not to be too surprising because their ideas have permeated society already, which is why I’m curious to hear your take.
- morbicer 2y ago
  Someone might not expect sth like this from the "father of capitalism" “As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed and demand a rent even for its natural produce.”
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Yep, Smith and Ricardo both recognized that land is unlike all other forms of capital.
- throw0101b 2y ago
  > How is Wealth of Nations surprising for a modern reader? Most people haven't read it, and tend to only reference things like "invisible hand", and skim/skip over a lot of Smith's 'moralizing'. His book before Wealth was after all The Theory of Moral Sentiments: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Moral_Sentiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Moral_Sentiments If you don't want to read Ye Olde English, perhaps see Glory Liu's book Adam Smith’s America: > Drawing on a trove of illuminating archival materials, Liu tells the story of how an unassuming Scottish philosopher captured the American imagination and played a leading role in shaping American economic and political ideas. She shows how Smith became known as the father of political economy in the nineteenth century and was firmly associated with free trade, and how, in the aftermath of the Great Depression, the Chicago School of Economics transformed him into the preeminent theorist of self-interest and the miracle of free markets. Liu explores how a new generation of political theorists and public intellectuals has sought to recover Smith’s original intentions and restore his reputation as a moral philosopher. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60015569-adam-smith-s-america https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60015569-adam-smith-s-am... Interview: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbQjDpUfJrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbQjDpUfJrs She goes into the "Adam Smith Problem"; one paper on it: > Adam Smith is best known for his economic theories that extoll the free market and individual self-interest. These ideas are the focus of Smith's second book, The Wealth of Nations. However, Smith also made large contributions to the fields of ethics and moral philosophy. Nearly 20 years prior to the publication of The Wealth of Nations, Smith first became a renowned moral philosopher when he published The Theory of Moral Sentiments. In The Theory of Moral Sentiments, Smith outlines the nature of morality. This morality, for Smith, places an emphasis upon sympathy and compassion, which are felt by imagining the plight of others through the impartial spectator. This impartial spectator is a mode of thinking that allows for one to adjudge the actions of others in relation to society's general attitudes toward that said action. Despite Smith's consummate rumination in both books, there seems to be a disconnect between Smith's moral philosophy, found within The Theory of Moral Sentiments, and his economic philosophy, found within The Wealth of Nations. How can Smith eulogize compassion and fellow feeling in one writing, while also holding that self-interest is necessary for the advancement of society in another? This disconnect is known as the Adam Smith Problem. The purpose of this project is to acknowledge the existence of The Adam Smith Problem by seeing it not as an attempt to undermine Smith's intellectual continuity, but as a challenge to reconcile the self-interested nature of humanity with higher moral standards accomplished through compassion. This reconciliation is accomplished through the notion of a liberal society in which an individual is both free to do anything that does not harm another and can expect society to maintain a higher set of moral standards through a justice system. Both wealth proliferation through self-interest and the upholding of higher values through compassion are predicates of this liberal society: the culmination of Smith's philosophy. * https://quod.lib.umich.edu/u/umurj/16481002.0014.007/--adam-smith-problem-integrating-self-interest-with-justice?rgn=main;view=fulltext https://quod.lib.umich.edu/u/umurj/16481002.0014.007/--adam-...
- illwrks 2y ago
  It was eye opening to me at that point in my life as I hadn’t given too much thought to the detail in the world around me, in my own life and the economy. It was a strange experience to read ye-olde-English that outlined observations that still apply today. To simplify it, in my mind it was like going to the moon (boring old economics book) and discovering someone else’s flag (we beat you to it, and everything we explain is still relevant)
- trod123 2y ago
  The biggest benefit from this book is it makes a large number of observations of the time period which is then distilled into rational first principles which can be used by others and makes it available in an easily read format. The observations can also be correlated with subsequent changes to give us a better understanding of how things work and progressed, as well as potentially destructive changes we've made moving forward to our systems of organization. The transition to Fiat currency, or taxation for example, I have no doubt, will eventually provoke a study and comparison as to why inflationary currencies should never be adopted, or only with severe restrictions. There are many concepts found in the book which are correct, there are several which are also very flawed and dated. Labor Value Theorem for example has been rigorously disproven as a viable framework through Menger, Hayek, and Mises (iirc). A society which has no education on these subjects is ill equipped to have to direct policy, or hold policy makers accountable for destructive actions (which may take years, decades, or sometimes half a century, in their cyclical actions). The first required step to correcting a problem is in being alerted to the fact that there is a problem, and societally we've really screwed this up with the advent of social media (many:1 platforms that drown out useful signals). Feedback systems that can no longer respond to correct stimulus are broken systems just waiting for the right circumstances for calamity.

andrepd 2y ago

An economic thinker that can garner praise from democratic socialists like Einstein to neoliberal ghouls like Milton Friedman has to have something going for it. It's transformed my worldview as well, if nothing else by underlining that free markets and capitalism are not the same thing at all.

wakawaka28 2y ago

Taxing land is definitely not a revolutionary concept. What made George famous is that he wrote a manifesto that blamed the "rich" land owners for all the ills of society, and proposed that solving the problem would be as simple as levying another tax. It sounds good but has little substance or relation to actual economics.

slwvx 2y ago
I'd prefer a more substantive critique than an ad-hominem statement
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  That is not an ad hominem statement. It is an opinion about how overblown the idea is and why George is famous for it. Some property tax is probably a good idea. Does this dude deserve credit for the idea? No. Is he right in asserting that all poverty results from a lack of access to land? No. Will property tax make the economy go brrr? No. The idea of choosing the uses of land by taxing the hell out of random entities just because you think have the money to pay for it is tantamount to communism. I'm not about to read a whole book on the supposed revolutionary merits of property tax, thank you very much.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Oh yeah, now that I got to this comment of yours… it’s very evident you haven’t read it by your (honestly, I don’t say this just to be insulting) downright cartoonish misunderstanding of its contents. Even more impressive, it’s obvious you haven’t even read a decent critique or summary of it. You should consider it! There’s a reason for its stature :)
    - wakawaka28 2y ago
      I disagree. I listened to an hour long, glowing summary of it and read about it on Wikipedia. It is just not convincing to me. The only thing cartoonish is how hard people praise it, considering we already have property taxes much like George wanted, which are often quite high and don't add to the economy. Property taxes like that are very close to communism, especially if you take it to an extreme. The higher the taxes, the less you actually own anything. I have also had the displeasure of arguing with someone who thinks Henry George had the right idea. The dude was literally defending the communist Chinese "property" model which is just a 70 year lease from the government. Calling my view extreme is like saying that an atheist is religious. Just because I don't accept this idea and all the ensuing conclusions, does not make my views extreme or unreasonable, much less "cartoonish"...