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My friends in a top tier high school had no intuition about numbers because they used calculators for everything, including basic addition and subtraction. Som

My friends in a top tier high school had no intuition about numbers because they used calculators for everything, including basic addition and subtraction. Some of them had customer service jobs where they became utterly confused if the change was 99 cents and the customer gave them an additional penny.

mistrial9 2y ago
except that the typical case is ... the charge is $1.01, I give you a $5 and a penny. A penny from the client to the house on top of a charge of $0.99 by the house, does xxxxxxxxx ... (edit) as pointed out below, a penny plus a $0.99 charge means that the cashier can return a whole number of bills, avoiding any coins..
- abanana 2y ago
  The change, not the charge. If the change is 99 cents, the customer gives an extra penny, the change is now 1 dollar, avoiding a handful of coins. It seems to have become the norm for young cashiers to be unable to understand. And if you try to explain, they'll insist "I can't change it now I've rung it through". Some seem to think the system keeps an exact record of the quantity of each individual coin (or they just don't even know where to begin to think about it).
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Another possibility: "The register says 99 cents change and I am not paid enough to give any more of a damn than that."
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      If you have basic comfort in arithmetic, this is not a calculation that involves giving a damn. Being confused about why someone would give you an extra penny and having a discussion about it with a stranger burns 100x more calories than knowing it. If basic arithmetic involves taking a deep breath and closing your eyes for half a minute, or looking around the room for a calculator, that's a different cost/benefit analysis. It's like the difference between a language you are fluent in and a language you are tentative in. If you're fluent, you have to make an effort not to listen to somebody's loud conversation, or not to pay attention to a billboard. They intrude into your consciousness. There's never a situation when I don't do simple arithmetic when exposed to it. I don't have to consciously figure out what 4 times 9 is. Subjectively, the number just pops into my head when I see the question. edit: If you can't do this with explanations of identities or related rates, etc., it's hard or impossible to follow any quantitative or especially probabilistic argument. Even the simplest ones. I think this results in people for whom arithmetic is difficult faking it by trying to memorize the words used during quantitative arguments without having any real understanding. Just sort of memorizing a lot of slogans and repeating them during any argument that shares similar words. I think discomfort with arithmetic ruins people politically (as citizens), so I really do think calculators are a problem.
  - bogdan 2y ago
    This totally happened me as well but I don't necessarily see the connection with calculators. This is all anecdotal imo.
pclmulqdq 2y ago
Everyone crying "calculator" about ChatGPT has me convinced that ChatGPT is bad for your education. Learning to do mental math as a child sucked, but now that I can do it, my brain is so much more free to think about stuff that matters. There's no intervening step of "let me pull out a calculator to see what that is," I just know the answer. The thoughts can just flow freely.
- ben_w 2y ago
  That's true for every skill that comes fluently. We've only got limited time, which skills really matter? I'd say yes to basic arithmetic; but I can't really use my own experience as a software developer who started off in video games to justify why a normal person needs to understand trigonometry and triangle formulas, any more than I can justify why they need to study Shakespeare and Alfred Tennyson over e.g. Terry Pratchett and Leonard Cohen — "I find it intellectually stimulating" is perhaps necessary, but certainly not sufficient, given there's more to learn than we can fit in a lifetime.
  - skydhash 2y ago
    Because they give you flexibility. One does not need to master everything, if you have a wide and stable foundation, your options become more numerous later in life. And expertise is a pyramid, so the more diverse your basic skills are, the farther you can reach.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    Literacy is important. Understanding Shakespeare and/or Tennyson is as much a part of that as is Pratchett. You will read Pratchett on your own, though, and you probably won't go reaching for the Shakespeare, so you might as well get some forced exposure. Understanding rhetoric is a very underappreciated skill, but an important one.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Reading isn't studying — that most won't read Shakespeare means studying the deeper meanings of the ingredients in the witches' brew in Macbeth is pointless and forced exposure is as much a waste of time as Roman numerals or Latin — do it on your own time as a hobby, don't make it mandatory. Conversely, understanding the deeper meanings behind the stuff people do read, perhaps Pratchett, is valuable — the use of speciesism between Dwarfs and Trolls used as a substitute for racism, etc. It's not like rhetoric stopped with old classics; therefore it is better to learn how it works in newspapers or viral memes, as if you keep to Tenyson you're just going to pattern match it to 1800s writing style.

mistrial9 2y ago

except that the typical case is ... the charge is $1.01, I give you a $5 and a penny. A penny from the client to the house on top of a charge of $0.99 by the house, does xxxxxxxxx ... (edit) as pointed out below, a penny plus a $0.99 charge means that the cashier can return a whole number of bills, avoiding any coins..

abanana 2y ago
The change, not the charge. If the change is 99 cents, the customer gives an extra penny, the change is now 1 dollar, avoiding a handful of coins. It seems to have become the norm for young cashiers to be unable to understand. And if you try to explain, they'll insist "I can't change it now I've rung it through". Some seem to think the system keeps an exact record of the quantity of each individual coin (or they just don't even know where to begin to think about it).
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Another possibility: "The register says 99 cents change and I am not paid enough to give any more of a damn than that."
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    If you have basic comfort in arithmetic, this is not a calculation that involves giving a damn. Being confused about why someone would give you an extra penny and having a discussion about it with a stranger burns 100x more calories than knowing it. If basic arithmetic involves taking a deep breath and closing your eyes for half a minute, or looking around the room for a calculator, that's a different cost/benefit analysis. It's like the difference between a language you are fluent in and a language you are tentative in. If you're fluent, you have to make an effort not to listen to somebody's loud conversation, or not to pay attention to a billboard. They intrude into your consciousness. There's never a situation when I don't do simple arithmetic when exposed to it. I don't have to consciously figure out what 4 times 9 is. Subjectively, the number just pops into my head when I see the question. edit: If you can't do this with explanations of identities or related rates, etc., it's hard or impossible to follow any quantitative or especially probabilistic argument. Even the simplest ones. I think this results in people for whom arithmetic is difficult faking it by trying to memorize the words used during quantitative arguments without having any real understanding. Just sort of memorizing a lot of slogans and repeating them during any argument that shares similar words. I think discomfort with arithmetic ruins people politically (as citizens), so I really do think calculators are a problem.
- bogdan 2y ago
  This totally happened me as well but I don't necessarily see the connection with calculators. This is all anecdotal imo.

pclmulqdq 2y ago

Everyone crying "calculator" about ChatGPT has me convinced that ChatGPT is bad for your education. Learning to do mental math as a child sucked, but now that I can do it, my brain is so much more free to think about stuff that matters. There's no intervening step of "let me pull out a calculator to see what that is," I just know the answer. The thoughts can just flow freely.

ben_w 2y ago
That's true for every skill that comes fluently. We've only got limited time, which skills really matter? I'd say yes to basic arithmetic; but I can't really use my own experience as a software developer who started off in video games to justify why a normal person needs to understand trigonometry and triangle formulas, any more than I can justify why they need to study Shakespeare and Alfred Tennyson over e.g. Terry Pratchett and Leonard Cohen — "I find it intellectually stimulating" is perhaps necessary, but certainly not sufficient, given there's more to learn than we can fit in a lifetime.
- skydhash 2y ago
  Because they give you flexibility. One does not need to master everything, if you have a wide and stable foundation, your options become more numerous later in life. And expertise is a pyramid, so the more diverse your basic skills are, the farther you can reach.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  Literacy is important. Understanding Shakespeare and/or Tennyson is as much a part of that as is Pratchett. You will read Pratchett on your own, though, and you probably won't go reaching for the Shakespeare, so you might as well get some forced exposure. Understanding rhetoric is a very underappreciated skill, but an important one.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Reading isn't studying — that most won't read Shakespeare means studying the deeper meanings of the ingredients in the witches' brew in Macbeth is pointless and forced exposure is as much a waste of time as Roman numerals or Latin — do it on your own time as a hobby, don't make it mandatory. Conversely, understanding the deeper meanings behind the stuff people do read, perhaps Pratchett, is valuable — the use of speciesism between Dwarfs and Trolls used as a substitute for racism, etc. It's not like rhetoric stopped with old classics; therefore it is better to learn how it works in newspapers or viral memes, as if you keep to Tenyson you're just going to pattern match it to 1800s writing style.