8 ms·

I’m stunned by the idea of making the pawn shop whole. As I understand UK law, if you buy stolen goods, the original owner can just claim it back and you take

I’m stunned by the idea of making the pawn shop whole. As I understand UK law, if you buy stolen goods, the original owner can just claim it back and you take the loss - simply to discourage buying with knowledge it was stolen. I guess the pawn shop would go out of business but it does seem if you let them act as a fence you are solving for the wrong problem

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
gary_0 2y ago
[deleted]
- delichon 2y ago
  Laws against fraud, like 18 U.S. Code Chapter 47 and others in each state?
- erinnh 2y ago
  Id say your friend being put behind bars would do the trick.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  They would just arrest the person who pawned the items.
bombcar 2y ago
They're likely trying to prevent the situation where the pawn shops become entirely uncooperative, but there's still a tragedy of the commons situation occurring.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  This is a periodic public service announcement that there is not, and never has been "a tragedy of the commons situation". Even the author of the concept, Garret Hardin, has acknowledged that he made mistakes in his understanding and research. Resources held in common have historically been subject to significant control via social, civic and legalistic processes. What is typically referred to as "a tragedy of the commons situation" never turns out to be what Hardin originally suggested - individuals taking advantage of the lack of controls. Instead it is invariably individuals who first dismantle the control systems in place in order to pursue their own selfish ends. This matters because the "tragedy of the commons" concept has been used to suggest (successfully) that communities cannot manage commonly held resources, which is false. What is true is that communities frequently cannot manage a sustained attack by selfishness and greed against their own systems of management, and that's a very, very different problem.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    Can you elaborate? My understanding is that overfishing and climate change are prime and valid examples of the tragedy of the commons. You seem to be claiming that the problem is with systems of management, but the entire point of the tragedy of the commons is that it happens when there isn't management. Which is abundantly the case at the global level of international waters and a shared atmosphere, because there is no such thing as a world government, nor do most people want one. So how exactly has there "never... been a tragedy of the commons"? How are overfishing and CO2 not exactly tragedies of the commons? What other principle explains why they weren't solved decades ago?
    - clcaev 2y ago
      The planet's air and international waters are truly public resources, at least currently. I'm not sure if I would call them a commons. Speaking of which, Elinor Ostrom's book, Governing the Commons, outlines the conditions for the successful management of a commons. Notably neither private ownership nor governmental control is ideal, the best outcomes are by cooperative organizations where those with a direct stake in the commons are the managers.
      - crazygringo 2y ago
        > I'm not sure if I would call them a commons. I don't understand why not. That's the literal definition of a commons in the political economy sense -- a public resource everyone can take from freely. (As opposed to a public resource that is managed via licenses, auctions, limits, etc.) On what basis would you not call them a commons, in political economy? The entire point of the "tragedy of the commons" is the tragedy of overfishing, the tragedy of CO2 levels, because nobody is in charge of managing it.
        PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        > That's the literal definition of a commons in the political economy sense -- a public resource everyone can take from freely. Part of Ostrom's point is that this sort of commons has rarely, if ever, existed. It's a misunderstanding that Hardin's work created or amplified. Resources held in common are in fact always managed and not "free for the taking".
willcipriano 2y ago
Often there is a fairly large delta between what they pay and what the sell for, I always assumed part of that premium was absorbing some risk the item was stolen and would have to be returned. Under this system, why not buy stolen goods and try your luck? "Oh hello guy who looks like he sleeps rough, I would love to buy your thousands of dollars worth of power tools that you can't even tell me what they are for pennies on the dollar."
to11mtm 2y ago
There's nuance to the laws though. The pawn shop has to, at 'bare minimum' do the proper paperwork (typically copying ID and taking fingerprints among other things.) The general "way it's supposed to work" is that now the police have a clean lead to the thief or part of the ring; If the shop doesn't follow the procedures, at least where I live, you -don't- have to make them whole and there's a crapton of fines. That said, it's still a bit of a sham in some ways. In 2011 a former niece absconded with ex-wife's <6 month old Laptop, <1 year old DSLR, Her TV, and the wedding ring [0] just after my ex moved in with her brother at the start of the separation (Ex BIL also had TVs etc taken). It wasn't until their Fourth trip to the pawn shop [1] where the wedding band engraving made it just too hard to pretend the stuff wasn't stolen [2]. [0] - kinda knew that's when it was over, lol. [1] - Part of a chain that used to have their own show that was a bit of 'Pawn stars crossed with Jerry Springer' [2] - Ironically this worked out; since the wedding ring was never recovered but gold had gone way up, Renters Insurance covered the pawn shop costs and the added value back from the ring handled the deductible (The rest of the ring amount went to her costs related to the separation.)
elzbardico 2y ago
On Brazil if you are caught with stolen goods there's a specific section of the penal code for that and you will could go to jail. Now, police is severly underfunded in Brazil and enforcement is a joke, but the law is severe, and sometimes some junkyard owner is arrested because of it.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

gary_0 2y ago

[deleted]

delichon 2y ago
Laws against fraud, like 18 U.S. Code Chapter 47 and others in each state?
erinnh 2y ago
Id say your friend being put behind bars would do the trick.
HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
They would just arrest the person who pawned the items.

bombcar 2y ago

They're likely trying to prevent the situation where the pawn shops become entirely uncooperative, but there's still a tragedy of the commons situation occurring.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
This is a periodic public service announcement that there is not, and never has been "a tragedy of the commons situation". Even the author of the concept, Garret Hardin, has acknowledged that he made mistakes in his understanding and research. Resources held in common have historically been subject to significant control via social, civic and legalistic processes. What is typically referred to as "a tragedy of the commons situation" never turns out to be what Hardin originally suggested - individuals taking advantage of the lack of controls. Instead it is invariably individuals who first dismantle the control systems in place in order to pursue their own selfish ends. This matters because the "tragedy of the commons" concept has been used to suggest (successfully) that communities cannot manage commonly held resources, which is false. What is true is that communities frequently cannot manage a sustained attack by selfishness and greed against their own systems of management, and that's a very, very different problem.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Can you elaborate? My understanding is that overfishing and climate change are prime and valid examples of the tragedy of the commons. You seem to be claiming that the problem is with systems of management, but the entire point of the tragedy of the commons is that it happens when there isn't management. Which is abundantly the case at the global level of international waters and a shared atmosphere, because there is no such thing as a world government, nor do most people want one. So how exactly has there "never... been a tragedy of the commons"? How are overfishing and CO2 not exactly tragedies of the commons? What other principle explains why they weren't solved decades ago?
  - clcaev 2y ago
    The planet's air and international waters are truly public resources, at least currently. I'm not sure if I would call them a commons. Speaking of which, Elinor Ostrom's book, Governing the Commons, outlines the conditions for the successful management of a commons. Notably neither private ownership nor governmental control is ideal, the best outcomes are by cooperative organizations where those with a direct stake in the commons are the managers.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      > I'm not sure if I would call them a commons. I don't understand why not. That's the literal definition of a commons in the political economy sense -- a public resource everyone can take from freely. (As opposed to a public resource that is managed via licenses, auctions, limits, etc.) On what basis would you not call them a commons, in political economy? The entire point of the "tragedy of the commons" is the tragedy of overfishing, the tragedy of CO2 levels, because nobody is in charge of managing it.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        > That's the literal definition of a commons in the political economy sense -- a public resource everyone can take from freely. Part of Ostrom's point is that this sort of commons has rarely, if ever, existed. It's a misunderstanding that Hardin's work created or amplified. Resources held in common are in fact always managed and not "free for the taking".

willcipriano 2y ago

Often there is a fairly large delta between what they pay and what the sell for, I always assumed part of that premium was absorbing some risk the item was stolen and would have to be returned. Under this system, why not buy stolen goods and try your luck? "Oh hello guy who looks like he sleeps rough, I would love to buy your thousands of dollars worth of power tools that you can't even tell me what they are for pennies on the dollar."

to11mtm 2y ago

There's nuance to the laws though. The pawn shop has to, at 'bare minimum' do the proper paperwork (typically copying ID and taking fingerprints among other things.) The general "way it's supposed to work" is that now the police have a clean lead to the thief or part of the ring; If the shop doesn't follow the procedures, at least where I live, you -don't- have to make them whole and there's a crapton of fines. That said, it's still a bit of a sham in some ways. In 2011 a former niece absconded with ex-wife's <6 month old Laptop, <1 year old DSLR, Her TV, and the wedding ring [0] just after my ex moved in with her brother at the start of the separation (Ex BIL also had TVs etc taken). It wasn't until their Fourth trip to the pawn shop [1] where the wedding band engraving made it just too hard to pretend the stuff wasn't stolen [2]. [0] - kinda knew that's when it was over, lol. [1] - Part of a chain that used to have their own show that was a bit of 'Pawn stars crossed with Jerry Springer' [2] - Ironically this worked out; since the wedding ring was never recovered but gold had gone way up, Renters Insurance covered the pawn shop costs and the added value back from the ring handled the deductible (The rest of the ring amount went to her costs related to the separation.)

elzbardico 2y ago

On Brazil if you are caught with stolen goods there's a specific section of the penal code for that and you will could go to jail. Now, police is severly underfunded in Brazil and enforcement is a joke, but the law is severe, and sometimes some junkyard owner is arrested because of it.