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Oh HELL yeah dude, now you’re talking my language. If we’re talking about how much faith we should have in our electoral process, “extremely skeptical at best”

Oh HELL yeah dude, now you’re talking my language. If we’re talking about how much faith we should have in our electoral process, “extremely skeptical at best” is a charitable position. But penny-ante voter fraud is a distraction; incidents are very low and it’s almost always some right wing nut casting a ballot as their dead mom or whatever. The real disenfranchisement happens before a vote is even cast. Parties gerrymandering their districts to hell and back, big purges of “inactive” voters from rolls, candidates colluding to box out opposition from outsiders, massive dark money PACs essentially bribing politicians in broad daylight or serving as effectively personal slush funds, the first-past-the-post system ensuring effective duopoly of political parties, the entire structure being profoundly anti-democratic (why is there an electoral college and not just popular vote? why should someone from Wyoming’s vote count for 10+x my vote thanks to how senators are apportioned? Etc). This shit is just red meat for both sides. BUT, that said, it is overall a good thing to not let local municipalities set up their own bullshit rules on top of all this.

sickofparadox 2y ago
>"Oh dude you're talking my language" >Immediately handwaves the point away and changes topics You are the anti-discussion.
- seo-speedwagon 2y ago
  proc0’s concern was “trusting the results” an election and how this law would impact that. I addressed it in multiple ways: 1. I pointed out that the original concern r.e. provisional ballots is unrelated to this law. 2. I also pointed out that the law codifies existing practice and prevents local municipalities from setting arbitrary rules. This does not loosen any existing practices. 3. And finally I commented on how much larger structural issues than individuals committing voter fraud contribute more towards legitimate mistrust of electoral processes. Feel free to actually comment on any of that if you get bored of scolding and snipping at me.
proc0 2y ago
Sure, we can build a bridge here. I'm not convinced voter fraud is such a "distraction" or insignificant because 1) there is a ton of concern about this with multiple court cases etc., and 2) precisely because there isn't as much transparency in the process of verifying election results. That said, I'm all for fixing most, if not all, of the things you mentioned. I'm just adding one more to that list. Additionally, considering the context of this thread, it's not so much about advocating for voter ID, as much as questioning why it was banned completely from the state.
- defrost 2y ago
  > I'm not convinced voter fraud is such a "distraction" or insignificant because 1) there is a ton of concern about this with multiple court cases etc. I'm not in the US, I don't care for US politics, however .. Wasn't it the case that one side (Trump's Republicans) bought more than a hundred voter fraud allegations before the courts? Wasn't it the case that not a single one of these cases found in favour of the plaintiffs? That many, if not most, were rejected for lack of any evidence of any real substance? Was it not the case that a number of high profile not-Trump Repuublicans were on record stating this was large a giant waste of time and total BS? Is there any actual solid evidence of actual significant voter fraud that actually took place (aside from a handful of Republicans making single additinal votes in names of their relatives to "prove" it possible) that was accepted by a Court? (ie. none of that 2000 Mules batshit conspiracy fiction)
  - proc0 2y ago
    Your questions are proving one of my points. There is a lot of concern over voter fraud, regardless of whether they were dismissed or not, there is diminishing trust in election results. Dismissing that concern is equivalent to dismissing the concerns of many voters, and that further creates political turmoil around elections. Why hate on the other side for asking for transparency, when instead both sides could work together to make sure there is absolutely zero doubt on election day? "wasting resources" on this is proof the system is inefficient, which is also a problem. Verifying election results should be instant and transparent, such that literally anyone can look up any record at any time.

sickofparadox 2y ago

>"Oh dude you're talking my language" >Immediately handwaves the point away and changes topics You are the anti-discussion.

seo-speedwagon 2y ago
proc0’s concern was “trusting the results” an election and how this law would impact that. I addressed it in multiple ways: 1. I pointed out that the original concern r.e. provisional ballots is unrelated to this law. 2. I also pointed out that the law codifies existing practice and prevents local municipalities from setting arbitrary rules. This does not loosen any existing practices. 3. And finally I commented on how much larger structural issues than individuals committing voter fraud contribute more towards legitimate mistrust of electoral processes. Feel free to actually comment on any of that if you get bored of scolding and snipping at me.

proc0 2y ago

Sure, we can build a bridge here. I'm not convinced voter fraud is such a "distraction" or insignificant because 1) there is a ton of concern about this with multiple court cases etc., and 2) precisely because there isn't as much transparency in the process of verifying election results. That said, I'm all for fixing most, if not all, of the things you mentioned. I'm just adding one more to that list. Additionally, considering the context of this thread, it's not so much about advocating for voter ID, as much as questioning why it was banned completely from the state.

defrost 2y ago
> I'm not convinced voter fraud is such a "distraction" or insignificant because 1) there is a ton of concern about this with multiple court cases etc. I'm not in the US, I don't care for US politics, however .. Wasn't it the case that one side (Trump's Republicans) bought more than a hundred voter fraud allegations before the courts? Wasn't it the case that not a single one of these cases found in favour of the plaintiffs? That many, if not most, were rejected for lack of any evidence of any real substance? Was it not the case that a number of high profile not-Trump Repuublicans were on record stating this was large a giant waste of time and total BS? Is there any actual solid evidence of actual significant voter fraud that actually took place (aside from a handful of Republicans making single additinal votes in names of their relatives to "prove" it possible) that was accepted by a Court? (ie. none of that 2000 Mules batshit conspiracy fiction)
- proc0 2y ago
  Your questions are proving one of my points. There is a lot of concern over voter fraud, regardless of whether they were dismissed or not, there is diminishing trust in election results. Dismissing that concern is equivalent to dismissing the concerns of many voters, and that further creates political turmoil around elections. Why hate on the other side for asking for transparency, when instead both sides could work together to make sure there is absolutely zero doubt on election day? "wasting resources" on this is proof the system is inefficient, which is also a problem. Verifying election results should be instant and transparent, such that literally anyone can look up any record at any time.