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Google et al pour billions annually into making android a first-class and dominant mobile OS. I think the FOSS community should leverage that and focus on libe

Google et al pour billions annually into making android a first-class and dominant mobile OS. I think the FOSS community should leverage that and focus on liberating Android instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

alwayslikethis 2y ago
Google is clamping on that freedom by providing ways to detect when you run unauthorized/liberated software (i.e. root or custom ROM)
- mozball 2y ago
  Your banking app is not going to work on Linux either. If Android is fundamentally broken then fork it. My point is, it seem smarter/easier to take Android and make it more linux-like than to take Linux and make it more Android-like. All the work is already done and paid for. Sailing with the wind vs sailing against the wind. edit : Unless the goal is also to benefit the linux desktop ecosystem (the whole convergence meme)
  - metadat 2y ago
    > Your banking app is not going to work on Linux either Why is that? I can use my bank through Linux via a web browser without issue. Logging in more frequently is a hassle but not a bad trade IMO.
    - mozball 2y ago
      The native app won't work though. The problem alluded to by grandparent comment and in linked-article.
    - PhilipRoman 2y ago
      Presumably this is about apps which are required for authentication, even in the browser version.
    - walthamstow 2y ago
      My bank doesn't even have a web portal, it's app-only. This is remarkably common in the UK, birthplace of Monzo, Revolut and Starling.
      - JetSpiegel 2y ago
        Then change from the bank equivalent to MVNO into a real bank with a website.
  - NotPractical 2y ago
    > Your banking app is not going to work on Linux either. I think the idea is that no amount of forking Android is going to produce something different enough to entice developers to port their apps to it, but maybe if an entirely new Linux-based mobile platform kicks off, there's a chance? If you have to consult `developer.android.com` (a Google-owned domain) to develop for your "totally not Android" platform, it may be difficult to avoid the temptation to do as the documentation recommends and simply embrace proprietary Google services and hardware attestation and whatnot. After all, 99% of users have those things and it's just these several weird forks that don't?
    - dtech 2y ago
      I highly doubt devs are interested in developing apps for such a niche mobile OS outside of hacker circles. Windows Phone failed because even paying devs for apps couldn't entice them to do so.
      - NotPractical 2y ago
        I think what these people are looking for, really, is an alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly that provides more control and less tracking, not necessarily Linux (yes, I know the title of the post is "we need GNU/Linux"). Companies like Framework prove that there's a nontrivial number of people looking for devices like this. Windows Phone was around during the time that carrying a smartphone on your person at all times was optional, and we didn't have critical government and banking services being delivered exclusively through apps that only work on Google Android and Apple iOS. I suspect that if Windows Phone had survived, and managed to keep even a tiny fraction of the market share, these apps would nonetheless be forced to support it because they would have to account for at least some of their customers using it.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    This is why it's so worrying that browsers are getting the same treatment. Attestation/WEI will bring this to the desktop (and mobile browser for that matter) and you'll have to use Chrome or an approved Chrome reskin (every other browser, basically) for most things.
    - NotPractical 2y ago
      > you'll have to use Chrome That isn't sufficient. You'll also need to use an OS which provides "acceptable" hardware attestation capabilities (as defined by Google) required to verify that the copy of Chrome is legitimate (otherwise this could be spoofed). In practice that most likely means your options are limited to: Windows 11, macOS with System Integrity Protection enabled, Chrome OS, stock Android with Google services installed as system apps, iOS. Google's first attempt at bringing attestation to the web, WEI, was shot down by hackers, but it won't be the last. Please continue to fight against this.
      - CalRobert 2y ago
        Honest question - how? I run Linux, Firefox, etc. but I don't know what else I can do to help restore a healthy ecosystem. Run for office with the pirate party?
        alwayslikethis 2y ago
        Crypto, piracy, and anything else you can do to protect yourself from the institutions that caused the these problems in the first place. The actual problem needs a societal/cultural solution though, not a technological one.
  - zozbot234 2y ago
    > If Android is fundamentally broken then fork it. My point is, it seem smarter/easier to take Android and make it more linux-like than to take Linux and make it more Android-like. That's what LineageOS (née CyanogenMod) tries to do, and what this leads to in practice is force them to depend on a heap of proprietary code (downstream kernels and userspace blobs). Outside of that, the work that's "done" on the AOSP/LineageOS UI layers and supporting software/"apps" is relatively easy to port over to Desktop Linux - the GNOME Mobile UX is actually making great progress from that POV. So I'm quite skeptical about your proposed approach.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
It's impossible because of hardware attestation. Until something is done for that (and "legal" seems the only way), there is no solution
- transpute 2y ago
  Android Virtualization Framework with pKVM on Pixel 7+ can technically allow unmodified Linux VMs to run in parallel with "official" VMs that pass hardware attestation. This feature is not yet exposed to end-users.
  - josephcsible 2y ago
    The point is that apps you need to run will only do so in the "official" VMs that pass hardware attestation and will intentionally fail in the unmodified Linux VMs.
    - transpute 2y ago
      If a banking app or DRM-encumbered streaming app can run in the official attested VM, what would be the benefit of running such closed apps in unmodified Linux VMs? If banks and streaming vendors don't trust unmodified VMs, why would open-source Linux VMs trust closed apps with binary blobs? One benefit of running open-source Linux VMs is access to the vast corpus of mature open-source software applications packaged by Debian, Fedora, etc.
      - josephcsible 2y ago
        > what would be the benefit of running such closed apps in unmodified Linux VMs? That you wouldn't need the official attested VM anymore. > why would open-source Linux VMs trust closed apps with binary blobs? The point is that with an open-source Linux VM, the user could decide what to trust instead of some megacorp deciding for everyone. > vast corpus of mature open-source software applications The problem is that there's a lot of proprietary apps that are both (1) necessary for a lot of real-world things, e.g., the SeatGeek app for tickets to shows, and (2) not replaceable with FOSS because the company will ban you if you connect to their API with a third-party client.

alwayslikethis 2y ago

Google is clamping on that freedom by providing ways to detect when you run unauthorized/liberated software (i.e. root or custom ROM)

mozball 2y ago
Your banking app is not going to work on Linux either. If Android is fundamentally broken then fork it. My point is, it seem smarter/easier to take Android and make it more linux-like than to take Linux and make it more Android-like. All the work is already done and paid for. Sailing with the wind vs sailing against the wind. edit : Unless the goal is also to benefit the linux desktop ecosystem (the whole convergence meme)
- metadat 2y ago
  > Your banking app is not going to work on Linux either Why is that? I can use my bank through Linux via a web browser without issue. Logging in more frequently is a hassle but not a bad trade IMO.
  - mozball 2y ago
    The native app won't work though. The problem alluded to by grandparent comment and in linked-article.
  - PhilipRoman 2y ago
    Presumably this is about apps which are required for authentication, even in the browser version.
  - walthamstow 2y ago
    My bank doesn't even have a web portal, it's app-only. This is remarkably common in the UK, birthplace of Monzo, Revolut and Starling.
    - JetSpiegel 2y ago
      Then change from the bank equivalent to MVNO into a real bank with a website.
- NotPractical 2y ago
  > Your banking app is not going to work on Linux either. I think the idea is that no amount of forking Android is going to produce something different enough to entice developers to port their apps to it, but maybe if an entirely new Linux-based mobile platform kicks off, there's a chance? If you have to consult `developer.android.com` (a Google-owned domain) to develop for your "totally not Android" platform, it may be difficult to avoid the temptation to do as the documentation recommends and simply embrace proprietary Google services and hardware attestation and whatnot. After all, 99% of users have those things and it's just these several weird forks that don't?
  - dtech 2y ago
    I highly doubt devs are interested in developing apps for such a niche mobile OS outside of hacker circles. Windows Phone failed because even paying devs for apps couldn't entice them to do so.
    - NotPractical 2y ago
      I think what these people are looking for, really, is an alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly that provides more control and less tracking, not necessarily Linux (yes, I know the title of the post is "we need GNU/Linux"). Companies like Framework prove that there's a nontrivial number of people looking for devices like this. Windows Phone was around during the time that carrying a smartphone on your person at all times was optional, and we didn't have critical government and banking services being delivered exclusively through apps that only work on Google Android and Apple iOS. I suspect that if Windows Phone had survived, and managed to keep even a tiny fraction of the market share, these apps would nonetheless be forced to support it because they would have to account for at least some of their customers using it.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  This is why it's so worrying that browsers are getting the same treatment. Attestation/WEI will bring this to the desktop (and mobile browser for that matter) and you'll have to use Chrome or an approved Chrome reskin (every other browser, basically) for most things.
  - NotPractical 2y ago
    > you'll have to use Chrome That isn't sufficient. You'll also need to use an OS which provides "acceptable" hardware attestation capabilities (as defined by Google) required to verify that the copy of Chrome is legitimate (otherwise this could be spoofed). In practice that most likely means your options are limited to: Windows 11, macOS with System Integrity Protection enabled, Chrome OS, stock Android with Google services installed as system apps, iOS. Google's first attempt at bringing attestation to the web, WEI, was shot down by hackers, but it won't be the last. Please continue to fight against this.
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      Honest question - how? I run Linux, Firefox, etc. but I don't know what else I can do to help restore a healthy ecosystem. Run for office with the pirate party?
      - alwayslikethis 2y ago
        Crypto, piracy, and anything else you can do to protect yourself from the institutions that caused the these problems in the first place. The actual problem needs a societal/cultural solution though, not a technological one.
- zozbot234 2y ago
  > If Android is fundamentally broken then fork it. My point is, it seem smarter/easier to take Android and make it more linux-like than to take Linux and make it more Android-like. That's what LineageOS (née CyanogenMod) tries to do, and what this leads to in practice is force them to depend on a heap of proprietary code (downstream kernels and userspace blobs). Outside of that, the work that's "done" on the AOSP/LineageOS UI layers and supporting software/"apps" is relatively easy to port over to Desktop Linux - the GNOME Mobile UX is actually making great progress from that POV. So I'm quite skeptical about your proposed approach.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago

It's impossible because of hardware attestation. Until something is done for that (and "legal" seems the only way), there is no solution

transpute 2y ago
Android Virtualization Framework with pKVM on Pixel 7+ can technically allow unmodified Linux VMs to run in parallel with "official" VMs that pass hardware attestation. This feature is not yet exposed to end-users.
- josephcsible 2y ago
  The point is that apps you need to run will only do so in the "official" VMs that pass hardware attestation and will intentionally fail in the unmodified Linux VMs.
  - transpute 2y ago
    If a banking app or DRM-encumbered streaming app can run in the official attested VM, what would be the benefit of running such closed apps in unmodified Linux VMs? If banks and streaming vendors don't trust unmodified VMs, why would open-source Linux VMs trust closed apps with binary blobs? One benefit of running open-source Linux VMs is access to the vast corpus of mature open-source software applications packaged by Debian, Fedora, etc.
    - josephcsible 2y ago
      > what would be the benefit of running such closed apps in unmodified Linux VMs? That you wouldn't need the official attested VM anymore. > why would open-source Linux VMs trust closed apps with binary blobs? The point is that with an open-source Linux VM, the user could decide what to trust instead of some megacorp deciding for everyone. > vast corpus of mature open-source software applications The problem is that there's a lot of proprietary apps that are both (1) necessary for a lot of real-world things, e.g., the SeatGeek app for tickets to shows, and (2) not replaceable with FOSS because the company will ban you if you connect to their API with a third-party client.