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The fact that you have to preface with "I'm no vegan" really sums up the entire issue of centuries-long commercial propaganda on behalf of the meat and dairy in

The fact that you have to preface with "I'm no vegan" really sums up the entire issue of centuries-long commercial propaganda on behalf of the meat and dairy industry. Americans eat way, way too much meat and anyone who tells them to cut back is a dirty vegan. These companies don't just sell meat, but an ideology and lifestyle to boot. As an example, I was in Florida a few months ago and my girlfriend and I casually mention that we were making a salad for dinner after someone asked about our dinner plans. Their immediate response was defensive, saying, "Are you one of them vegans? Well, we only eat meat around these parts" and proceeded to tell us all about these great deals on meat at a local store, thinking that we'd hear those prices and be unable to resist and start eating meat. Just because we mentioned a salad, his manufactured, mass-produced opinion was that we must be vegan. We're not. She's vegetarian, I'm pescatarion, but the difference is immaterial to a meat addict who's been sold a crusade. It's the same story with our country's cult-like addiction to alcohol. Every time I go out and don't drink, I have to explain to people that I'm not a teetotaler, and have to explain the foreign concept of moderation. They get defensive and try to get me to drink anyway, because if I don't, they're forced to reckon with their own lifestyle choices of excess. Exact same issue with our meat consumption.

taurath 2y ago
> Americans eat way, way too much meat and anyone who tells them to cut back is a dirty vegan Its not like "greed for meat", its also cultural preference (meat was a "whenever you can, if you can afford it" food for centuries), and also the cheapness and readiness of meat as a ready-to-eat food relative to vegetables. Burgers and hot dogs require a lot fewer steps to cook them than almost anything with vegetables, and they're usually about as expensive. Whens the last time you saw a vegetable other than lettuce at a fast food place? There's not a lot of ready veggies, and they don't keep very well. Meat honestly sucks as a thing for the world though - way more land, have to grow massive amounts of grain. I reduced most of my meat consumption to eat better, but it does require more effort, or more money for restaurants and takeout for convenience.
- soulofmischief 2y ago
  > Burgers and hot dogs require a lot fewer steps to cook them than almost anything with vegetables You can take just about any vegetable, add salt and pepper and oil, and shove it in the oven, cook it on the stove, boil it, etc... and many vegetables can be eaten raw. Unless you're referring to nuking hot dogs in the microwave, meat and vegetables require the same amount of effort, whatever you're willing to put in. When I ate steak, my vegetables would cook in the same exact pan, with the same seasonings, for the same amount of time (if you like medium-rare, though personally I ate my steaks blue) In many cases, probably most, a vegetarian meal is easier to prepare than a burger. And from a health perspective, burgers and hotdogs should not be a daily diet anyway. > There's not a lot of ready veggies, and they don't keep very well. Plenty vegetables keep just as long as meat, if you keep them in the same conditions, whether refrigerated or frozen. I've been employed as a cook, waiter, organic farmer, ready-made meal prepper, you name it, I have enough experience in the industry at all verticals that I can definitively tell you that many staple vegetables keep just fine in the period of time between food deliveries. In the case of ready-made meals, on average, our vegetarian dishes were easier and quicker to prepare, afforded us more versatility in meal designing while keeping prep simple, and they lasted just as long if not longer than meat-oriented meals in our stores. What I'm really seeing here, and please take no offense, is projection on your part onto the culinary economics of today's world. In fact, many cultures eat primarily vegetarian dishes, and will be the first to tell you how economic and efficient their meals are. I urge you to reconsider your views as my industry experience, and the experiences of many non-American cultures, simply does not match up with what you're saying. It's good to reduce your meat intake, but spreading this kinds of misinformation about vegetables, even if unintentional, is harmful to the overall goal of reducing our national meat consumption.
  - erikpukinskis 2y ago
    > You can take just about any vegetable, add salt and pepper and oil, and shove it in the oven I eat a lot of vegetables and I want to encourage people to eat them, but I think you’re over-selling it. You can literally grab a hunk of 80% ground beef, slap it on a hot skillet, smash it, flip it once, and it’s done. Sprinkle a little salt and that’s a very tasty very easy to eat very nutritionally complete food. Same is true for eggs and a handful of other non-vegan things. Vegetables are just not the same. I am a pretty lazy cook and still, if I want to cook broccoli I need to get out a cutting board, chop it, throw away the parts that are too tough to eat, then put oil in the hot pan, add the broccoli, turning it several times so it cooks evenly. I’m probably putting a lid on at some point, and/or adding a little water. It actually requires quite a bit of finesse to end up with broccoli that’s as easy to eat as a burger. And that’s not a complete meal. You could live off plain burger patties but not plain broccoli. So you’re going to have to add some other stuff: nuts and grains, rice and beans, etc. And I wouldn’t say any of that is hard but I think we need to be honest about the effort involved. It doesn’t solve anything to pretend it’s easy and then have people give try it and get completely lost.
genewitch 2y ago
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- soulofmischief 2y ago
  > You exude this pompous ideological facade Your comment comes off as extraordinarily defensive and projective. > oh, so you are "one of those" It starts off here, immediately from a judgemental and pompous position. You immediately generalize me, then project several ideas and behaviors onto both me and the people I interact with. > You even have paragraphs about how vegetables and meat are basically the same in every way - except for flavor, nutrition, taste, enjoyment Reread the comment. I and the other commenter were discussing preparation time, and only preparation time and shelf-life. Please do not project a straw man argument onto me, I said nothing regarding flavor, nutrition, taste or enjoyment or them being "the same in every way". But since you bring it up, I do love the flavor of many vegetables, I can get my full proteins and nutrition from plant sources, and I enjoy cooking and eating them. > P.S. Fishing is destroying massive amounts of ecosystems, too. Absolutely! And we should also severely limit our fish intake. I see that you're trying to justify your own lifestyle by attempting to point out hypocrisy within mine, however your assumptions about my diet are flawed. > Might be time to bite the bullet and just do veganism. Then you can lord over the lowly cheese eaters and pescos. And the grand stroke, in which you proved yourself to be exactly the kind of ignorant, judgemental person I just described, who gets defensive and triggered over conversations about reducing meat intake. Please keep your generalizations to yourself. What a disgusting comment.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    > "Are you one of them vegans?" I latched on to your response to this, and pointing out your words are why people think you're "one of them vegans". the key word in that is "them", or as i used it, "those." The interesting thing, here, is: the only thing you know about me is that i avoid alcohol. and you ascribe a lot of things to me based on the fact that i caught on to your demeanor. Yeah, i was a bit caustic. I don't know that it matters, though, it seems like you're used to it. And you mentioned storage (in the GP), and how "we shouldn't be eating [meat] daily anyhow" (in this comment), and we should "severely limit fish intake." I'm sure if prodded you can rattle off the 15 plants that give 90% of all the nutritional value humans need (as can i, but that's neither here nor there.) And then taste and nutrition is mentioned in this comment as well. It's not like i can predict the future, i've just heard this all before. I'm just giving back to you the same judgemental claptrap that i read in your first comment, and now subsequent one as well. Again, you don't know anything about me or my diet or ideology. But I know yours. It's funny how that works.
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taurath 2y ago

> Americans eat way, way too much meat and anyone who tells them to cut back is a dirty vegan Its not like "greed for meat", its also cultural preference (meat was a "whenever you can, if you can afford it" food for centuries), and also the cheapness and readiness of meat as a ready-to-eat food relative to vegetables. Burgers and hot dogs require a lot fewer steps to cook them than almost anything with vegetables, and they're usually about as expensive. Whens the last time you saw a vegetable other than lettuce at a fast food place? There's not a lot of ready veggies, and they don't keep very well. Meat honestly sucks as a thing for the world though - way more land, have to grow massive amounts of grain. I reduced most of my meat consumption to eat better, but it does require more effort, or more money for restaurants and takeout for convenience.

soulofmischief 2y ago
> Burgers and hot dogs require a lot fewer steps to cook them than almost anything with vegetables You can take just about any vegetable, add salt and pepper and oil, and shove it in the oven, cook it on the stove, boil it, etc... and many vegetables can be eaten raw. Unless you're referring to nuking hot dogs in the microwave, meat and vegetables require the same amount of effort, whatever you're willing to put in. When I ate steak, my vegetables would cook in the same exact pan, with the same seasonings, for the same amount of time (if you like medium-rare, though personally I ate my steaks blue) In many cases, probably most, a vegetarian meal is easier to prepare than a burger. And from a health perspective, burgers and hotdogs should not be a daily diet anyway. > There's not a lot of ready veggies, and they don't keep very well. Plenty vegetables keep just as long as meat, if you keep them in the same conditions, whether refrigerated or frozen. I've been employed as a cook, waiter, organic farmer, ready-made meal prepper, you name it, I have enough experience in the industry at all verticals that I can definitively tell you that many staple vegetables keep just fine in the period of time between food deliveries. In the case of ready-made meals, on average, our vegetarian dishes were easier and quicker to prepare, afforded us more versatility in meal designing while keeping prep simple, and they lasted just as long if not longer than meat-oriented meals in our stores. What I'm really seeing here, and please take no offense, is projection on your part onto the culinary economics of today's world. In fact, many cultures eat primarily vegetarian dishes, and will be the first to tell you how economic and efficient their meals are. I urge you to reconsider your views as my industry experience, and the experiences of many non-American cultures, simply does not match up with what you're saying. It's good to reduce your meat intake, but spreading this kinds of misinformation about vegetables, even if unintentional, is harmful to the overall goal of reducing our national meat consumption.
- erikpukinskis 2y ago
  > You can take just about any vegetable, add salt and pepper and oil, and shove it in the oven I eat a lot of vegetables and I want to encourage people to eat them, but I think you’re over-selling it. You can literally grab a hunk of 80% ground beef, slap it on a hot skillet, smash it, flip it once, and it’s done. Sprinkle a little salt and that’s a very tasty very easy to eat very nutritionally complete food. Same is true for eggs and a handful of other non-vegan things. Vegetables are just not the same. I am a pretty lazy cook and still, if I want to cook broccoli I need to get out a cutting board, chop it, throw away the parts that are too tough to eat, then put oil in the hot pan, add the broccoli, turning it several times so it cooks evenly. I’m probably putting a lid on at some point, and/or adding a little water. It actually requires quite a bit of finesse to end up with broccoli that’s as easy to eat as a burger. And that’s not a complete meal. You could live off plain burger patties but not plain broccoli. So you’re going to have to add some other stuff: nuts and grains, rice and beans, etc. And I wouldn’t say any of that is hard but I think we need to be honest about the effort involved. It doesn’t solve anything to pretend it’s easy and then have people give try it and get completely lost.

genewitch 2y ago

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soulofmischief 2y ago
> You exude this pompous ideological facade Your comment comes off as extraordinarily defensive and projective. > oh, so you are "one of those" It starts off here, immediately from a judgemental and pompous position. You immediately generalize me, then project several ideas and behaviors onto both me and the people I interact with. > You even have paragraphs about how vegetables and meat are basically the same in every way - except for flavor, nutrition, taste, enjoyment Reread the comment. I and the other commenter were discussing preparation time, and only preparation time and shelf-life. Please do not project a straw man argument onto me, I said nothing regarding flavor, nutrition, taste or enjoyment or them being "the same in every way". But since you bring it up, I do love the flavor of many vegetables, I can get my full proteins and nutrition from plant sources, and I enjoy cooking and eating them. > P.S. Fishing is destroying massive amounts of ecosystems, too. Absolutely! And we should also severely limit our fish intake. I see that you're trying to justify your own lifestyle by attempting to point out hypocrisy within mine, however your assumptions about my diet are flawed. > Might be time to bite the bullet and just do veganism. Then you can lord over the lowly cheese eaters and pescos. And the grand stroke, in which you proved yourself to be exactly the kind of ignorant, judgemental person I just described, who gets defensive and triggered over conversations about reducing meat intake. Please keep your generalizations to yourself. What a disgusting comment.
- genewitch 2y ago
  > "Are you one of them vegans?" I latched on to your response to this, and pointing out your words are why people think you're "one of them vegans". the key word in that is "them", or as i used it, "those." The interesting thing, here, is: the only thing you know about me is that i avoid alcohol. and you ascribe a lot of things to me based on the fact that i caught on to your demeanor. Yeah, i was a bit caustic. I don't know that it matters, though, it seems like you're used to it. And you mentioned storage (in the GP), and how "we shouldn't be eating [meat] daily anyhow" (in this comment), and we should "severely limit fish intake." I'm sure if prodded you can rattle off the 15 plants that give 90% of all the nutritional value humans need (as can i, but that's neither here nor there.) And then taste and nutrition is mentioned in this comment as well. It's not like i can predict the future, i've just heard this all before. I'm just giving back to you the same judgemental claptrap that i read in your first comment, and now subsequent one as well. Again, you don't know anything about me or my diet or ideology. But I know yours. It's funny how that works.

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