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It blows me away that "The Jargon File" is not required canon. Well, it can be anachronistic and old-school-nerd-bro coded, but there's some primal stuff in the

It blows me away that "The Jargon File" is not required canon. Well, it can be anachronistic and old-school-nerd-bro coded, but there's some primal stuff in there http://catb.org/jargon/html/ http://catb.org/jargon/html/

fragmede 2y ago
maybe it's time for an update
d0mine 2y ago
http://catb.org/jargon/html/F/foobar.html http://catb.org/jargon/html/F/foobar.html
FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
> old-school-nerd-bro I'm trying to maintain that the nerds of yore and the bros* who invaded in the 2010s are different groups -- in which case "old-school nerd bro" would be a contradiction in terms -- but alas "bro" has simply come to mean "male", and, to the English majors writing the newspaper articles, "they all look the same". So maybe I need to give up. * etymology: "tech bro", in analogy with "finance bro", which originated because fraternity brothers from top schools used to go into finance, but then migrated into Tech around '08. Associated stereotypically with developed pectorals and polo shirts with popped collars. Close to the "Chad" archetype, but with some light granola/yoga overtones.
- IggleSniggle 2y ago
  I've been the same way but I think it's time to give up; the language has moved on, and it's only a very specific age bracket that recognizes the distinction. Graybeard means something different now too. It's okay though. It's not important and doesn't need to be maintained; it was just another form of gate-keeping... the early "nerd-bro" practically required the distinction as a form of identity reclamation in a culture that disparaged their puny interests in computing. We should celebrate that that particular shield is no longer needed, and thus that gatekeeping is no longer needed for ego-survival, either.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- bee_rider 2y ago
  You are correct. Don’t give up!
dfox 2y ago
The real jargon file is probably here: https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html And it includes an explanation of what is wrong with ESR's version. But well, lets reiterate that: ESR is this weird kind of quasi-libertarian ego-maniac who occasionally produces something marginally useful and then oversells how that thing is part of the critical internet infrastructure or something like that.
Uehreka 2y ago
I think it feels dated because it’s from a time when there were far fewer hackers. It’s way easier to make sweeping generalizations (“hackers like X and don’t like Y”, “hackers have a Z-ish sense of humor”) about a small group and have it actually be true. These days it seems weird, even mildly culty, to make definitive and specific statements about “what hackers are like”. There are millions of us all over the world. Many of us barely have a spoken language in common, let alone share a sense of humor or cultural values.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
jollyllama 2y ago
At some point the lines crossed between people whose first exposure was the old "FUBAR" and those whose first exposure was the tech "foo/bar/baz". I wonder when it was.
- marssaxman 2y ago
  I imagine that many of us who got into programming through the 1980s home computer boom encountered the terms "foo" and "bar" before we were old enough that adults would have felt comfortable using "FUBAR" around us.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    In my experience, adults were comfortable saying FUBAR around kids but didn't explain it to be an acronym. I learned it simply as a regular word, which though context I understood to mean something was badly messed up.
xorcist 2y ago
There was this thing called the Jargon File. Then it was taken over by a rogue person who removed some things which didn't fit his personal liking and put in some other things. There was a lot of drama, but the end result was a skewed file that emphasized certain parts of hacker culture over others. It might be good to know that you linked to the version which one person had outsized influence of, and should probably not be used to write history from. Except history on early Internet drama, perhaps.
- justinpombrio 2y ago
  Can the original be found somewhere?
  - js2 2y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41753841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41753841
- douglee650 2y ago
  Was not aware of this, I've been reading the file since like … a very long time. I did always find the "Portrait of J Random Hacker" pretty lame, but really enjoyed the AI Koans, especially "Moon instructs a student". -- New version has many more terms in the lexicon, but it's good to see the "canonical" terms although the foreword exhibits its own strong bias. Original is missing some of my favorites from the so-called rogue fork like "bogo sort", "magic smoke", and "big red switch" -- Link to original https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html

fragmede 2y ago

maybe it's time for an update

d0mine 2y ago

http://catb.org/jargon/html/F/foobar.html http://catb.org/jargon/html/F/foobar.html

FooBarBizBazz 2y ago

> old-school-nerd-bro I'm trying to maintain that the nerds of yore and the bros* who invaded in the 2010s are different groups -- in which case "old-school nerd bro" would be a contradiction in terms -- but alas "bro" has simply come to mean "male", and, to the English majors writing the newspaper articles, "they all look the same". So maybe I need to give up. * etymology: "tech bro", in analogy with "finance bro", which originated because fraternity brothers from top schools used to go into finance, but then migrated into Tech around '08. Associated stereotypically with developed pectorals and polo shirts with popped collars. Close to the "Chad" archetype, but with some light granola/yoga overtones.

IggleSniggle 2y ago
I've been the same way but I think it's time to give up; the language has moved on, and it's only a very specific age bracket that recognizes the distinction. Graybeard means something different now too. It's okay though. It's not important and doesn't need to be maintained; it was just another form of gate-keeping... the early "nerd-bro" practically required the distinction as a form of identity reclamation in a culture that disparaged their puny interests in computing. We should celebrate that that particular shield is no longer needed, and thus that gatekeeping is no longer needed for ego-survival, either.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
bee_rider 2y ago
You are correct. Don’t give up!

dfox 2y ago

The real jargon file is probably here: https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html And it includes an explanation of what is wrong with ESR's version. But well, lets reiterate that: ESR is this weird kind of quasi-libertarian ego-maniac who occasionally produces something marginally useful and then oversells how that thing is part of the critical internet infrastructure or something like that.

Uehreka 2y ago

I think it feels dated because it’s from a time when there were far fewer hackers. It’s way easier to make sweeping generalizations (“hackers like X and don’t like Y”, “hackers have a Z-ish sense of humor”) about a small group and have it actually be true. These days it seems weird, even mildly culty, to make definitive and specific statements about “what hackers are like”. There are millions of us all over the world. Many of us barely have a spoken language in common, let alone share a sense of humor or cultural values.

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

jollyllama 2y ago

At some point the lines crossed between people whose first exposure was the old "FUBAR" and those whose first exposure was the tech "foo/bar/baz". I wonder when it was.

marssaxman 2y ago
I imagine that many of us who got into programming through the 1980s home computer boom encountered the terms "foo" and "bar" before we were old enough that adults would have felt comfortable using "FUBAR" around us.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  In my experience, adults were comfortable saying FUBAR around kids but didn't explain it to be an acronym. I learned it simply as a regular word, which though context I understood to mean something was badly messed up.

xorcist 2y ago

There was this thing called the Jargon File. Then it was taken over by a rogue person who removed some things which didn't fit his personal liking and put in some other things. There was a lot of drama, but the end result was a skewed file that emphasized certain parts of hacker culture over others. It might be good to know that you linked to the version which one person had outsized influence of, and should probably not be used to write history from. Except history on early Internet drama, perhaps.

justinpombrio 2y ago
Can the original be found somewhere?
- js2 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41753841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41753841
douglee650 2y ago
Was not aware of this, I've been reading the file since like … a very long time. I did always find the "Portrait of J Random Hacker" pretty lame, but really enjoyed the AI Koans, especially "Moon instructs a student". -- New version has many more terms in the lexicon, but it's good to see the "canonical" terms although the foreword exhibits its own strong bias. Original is missing some of my favorites from the so-called rogue fork like "bogo sort", "magic smoke", and "big red switch" -- Link to original https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html https://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html