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No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq, since we

No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq, since we had no business being there. With regard to Israelis, any sort of othering will be perceived as antisemitism. But, what Israel is doing in Gaza is on par with what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

ossobuco 2y ago
> No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. Rethink[0]. It just takes some basic math to understand that the USA has done much worse, even if we just consider civilian deaths estimates. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. And for what, to stop communism? Is that a valid reason to devastate three countries? > But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq Orcs once, orcs forever. Isn't that how it works? If you can call an entire population "orcs", then there must be some intrinsic evil rooted in their ethnicity, culture, or whatever it is. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_caused_by_the_American_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_...
- oneshtein 2y ago
  Communists killed more than 100 millions worldwide, not thousands.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    25k people starve to death each day[0]. Those deaths all happen in capitalist economies. That's 9 million each year, for who knows how many years since we developed the necessary technology to have a surplus of food. We're talking about hundreds of millions of preventable deaths, if not more. That's just the result of a very inefficient economic system—without even counting wars, lack of healthcare, and so on. I'll happily choose communism over such an incredibly unjust system, even if it caused "100 million" deaths worldwide, as you say. That number is complete BS, by the way. - [0]: https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-every-day https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-...
    - mopsi 2y ago
      Which of the countries facing hunger have anything resembling a modern market economy?
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        The real question is why don't they have a modern market economy, and if they all did, what would happen to the existing modern market economies?
        mopsi 2y ago
        That was a long way of saying "none". Massive food surplus is a feature of efficient market economies. By rejecting it on ideological grounds, it should come as no surprise that countries like Afghanistan or North Korea end up with hunger. Their development into modern countries would free others from the burden of having to provide food and other aid to their starving citizens.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        What a laughably naive view of the world. Ever wondered why goods are affordable in our "modern market economies"? It's because we exploit labor and resources in poorer countries, at a fraction of what it would cost here, to produce cheap goods. So what do you think is going to happen the day that all poorer countries have developed into "modern market economies" and we can't exploit them like we do today? You realize that our economies would have to change completely?
        wiseowise 2y ago
        > It's because we exploit labor and resources in poorer countries Of course we do, tovarisch.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        > Of course we do, tovarisch. Nice argument you got there; it really shows your unwillingness to see things for what they are. Keep living the dream, no worries, there is no exploitation in the world, and your lifestyle is entirely moral.
  - antifa 2y ago
    It's recently become mainstream knowledge that those numbers were a more like wishful thinking than fact, also pretty useless because nobody parroting them knows any control group numbers, and would be off-topic even if true.
    - oneshtein 2y ago
      It's Russian and Chinese propaganda. China - 61 million victims (and counting). USSR - 36-37 million victims (25 million of them are Ukrainians). North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.
      - antifa 2y ago
        And the numbers themselves are NATO propanda to push a NATO world order, it's not all propaganda just because you disagree, pointing out that China disagrees with the US on a very US vs China geopolitical and ideological dispute is indistinguishable from cheering on your favorite sports team at this point.
        oneshtein 2y ago
        No, it's communist propaganda. Physical elimination of richer or ideologically different people is the core of communist ideology. You should know that if you call yourself "antifa".
        antifa 2y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
        oneshtein 2y ago
        I cannot read your mind.
af78 2y ago
Exactly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol In this example, one among countless others, russia killed tens of thousands of civilians, in a couple of months. russia caused more suffering in a few months of war than the USA in a decade in Vietnam. Comparing the two is utterly dishonest.
- protomolecule 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    [flagged]
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Russia caused more suffering in a few months of war than the USA in a decade in Vietnam. Absolutely and obviously false, as you will quickly reveal to yourself by spending a few seconds looking up the toll of civilian deaths and maimings during the US-driven conflict in Vietnam. Comparing the two is utterly dishonest. The comparison is in any case completely vacuous. There's no indication that you're being dishonest here, however. Most likely it's a case of simple willful ignorance. In this example, one among countless others, There are exactly 3 others since WW2: Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan. Their number is not, by any stretch, "countless".
  - af78 2y ago
    By 'countless', I was referring to events in this war other than Mariupol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_inva... Of course russia committed many more in the wars you cited. And we could add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_January https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_January https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

ossobuco 2y ago

> No, the U.S. has not done worse than Russia has in this war. Not even in Vietnam, I think. Rethink[0]. It just takes some basic math to understand that the USA has done much worse, even if we just consider civilian deaths estimates. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. And for what, to stop communism? Is that a valid reason to devastate three countries? > But, I guess we were orcs when we invaded and occupied Iraq Orcs once, orcs forever. Isn't that how it works? If you can call an entire population "orcs", then there must be some intrinsic evil rooted in their ethnicity, culture, or whatever it is. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_caused_by_the_American_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Deaths_...

oneshtein 2y ago
Communists killed more than 100 millions worldwide, not thousands.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  25k people starve to death each day[0]. Those deaths all happen in capitalist economies. That's 9 million each year, for who knows how many years since we developed the necessary technology to have a surplus of food. We're talking about hundreds of millions of preventable deaths, if not more. That's just the result of a very inefficient economic system—without even counting wars, lack of healthcare, and so on. I'll happily choose communism over such an incredibly unjust system, even if it caused "100 million" deaths worldwide, as you say. That number is complete BS, by the way. - [0]: https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-every-day https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-...
  - mopsi 2y ago
    Which of the countries facing hunger have anything resembling a modern market economy?
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      The real question is why don't they have a modern market economy, and if they all did, what would happen to the existing modern market economies?
      - mopsi 2y ago
        That was a long way of saying "none". Massive food surplus is a feature of efficient market economies. By rejecting it on ideological grounds, it should come as no surprise that countries like Afghanistan or North Korea end up with hunger. Their development into modern countries would free others from the burden of having to provide food and other aid to their starving citizens.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        What a laughably naive view of the world. Ever wondered why goods are affordable in our "modern market economies"? It's because we exploit labor and resources in poorer countries, at a fraction of what it would cost here, to produce cheap goods. So what do you think is going to happen the day that all poorer countries have developed into "modern market economies" and we can't exploit them like we do today? You realize that our economies would have to change completely?
        wiseowise 2y ago
        > It's because we exploit labor and resources in poorer countries Of course we do, tovarisch.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        > Of course we do, tovarisch. Nice argument you got there; it really shows your unwillingness to see things for what they are. Keep living the dream, no worries, there is no exploitation in the world, and your lifestyle is entirely moral.
- antifa 2y ago
  It's recently become mainstream knowledge that those numbers were a more like wishful thinking than fact, also pretty useless because nobody parroting them knows any control group numbers, and would be off-topic even if true.
  - oneshtein 2y ago
    It's Russian and Chinese propaganda. China - 61 million victims (and counting). USSR - 36-37 million victims (25 million of them are Ukrainians). North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.
    - antifa 2y ago
      And the numbers themselves are NATO propanda to push a NATO world order, it's not all propaganda just because you disagree, pointing out that China disagrees with the US on a very US vs China geopolitical and ideological dispute is indistinguishable from cheering on your favorite sports team at this point.
      - oneshtein 2y ago
        No, it's communist propaganda. Physical elimination of richer or ideologically different people is the core of communist ideology. You should know that if you call yourself "antifa".
        antifa 2y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
        oneshtein 2y ago
        I cannot read your mind.

af78 2y ago

Exactly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol In this example, one among countless others, russia killed tens of thousands of civilians, in a couple of months. russia caused more suffering in a few months of war than the USA in a decade in Vietnam. Comparing the two is utterly dishonest.

protomolecule 2y ago
[flagged]
- aguaviva 2y ago
  [flagged]
aguaviva 2y ago
Russia caused more suffering in a few months of war than the USA in a decade in Vietnam. Absolutely and obviously false, as you will quickly reveal to yourself by spending a few seconds looking up the toll of civilian deaths and maimings during the US-driven conflict in Vietnam. Comparing the two is utterly dishonest. The comparison is in any case completely vacuous. There's no indication that you're being dishonest here, however. Most likely it's a case of simple willful ignorance. In this example, one among countless others, There are exactly 3 others since WW2: Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan. Their number is not, by any stretch, "countless".
- af78 2y ago
  By 'countless', I was referring to events in this war other than Mariupol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_inva... Of course russia committed many more in the wars you cited. And we could add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_January https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_January https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War