7 ms·

I have a tough time relating to "[believing] in the work we do" at a for-profit company, especially one that just makes blogs. I work at a somewhat similar comm

I have a tough time relating to "[believing] in the work we do" at a for-profit company, especially one that just makes blogs. I work at a somewhat similar commercial open source company, I really enjoy my job, and I adore my direct collegues, but I've thought a lot over the past few years that if in a similar position I would almost definitely take the offer. A job you like where ~10% of your colleges leave is a job I would probably enjoy a whole lot less.

vunderba 2y ago
100% agreed - given that they published this under their own name though, I wonder how much of that was just echoing the corporate mission statement of Automattic for the sake of any colleagues who happen to stumble across the blog.
- saghm 2y ago
  I was a bit dubious about this point of view before reading the full post, but wow, the last couple paragraphs lay it on thick. Suing someone for using your open source product in their own product takes "courage"? Comparing the work of developing Wordpress to Rodney King? I want to give the author the benefit of the doubt, and maybe I'm too cynical, but this sounds even more corporate-y than a lot of stuff I've read on company-hosted blogs.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I don't think there was a comparison between WordPress and Rodney King. If so, what is the comparison being claimed. Is WordPress the cops? The one saying can't we get along? The way I read it at least, it was a simple reference and sentiment, not a comparison.
    - saghm 2y ago
      Fair enough. It still feels shoehorned in to me though, almost like an essay in school students are told to include a quote in their conclusion (something that happened in my English class at least once from what I can remember), which just adds to the vibe of this being "homework" to support their employer rather than coming across as authentic.
    - lovich 2y ago
      Literally the one saying can't we all get along is referencing Rodney King and inferring a comparison between them. For future readers the article at one point said >On May 1, 1992, a man who’d been horribly beaten by the L.A. police called for calm in five heartfelt, memorable words: “Can’t we all get along?” This is a reference to a statement by Rodney King near the end of the riot period. https://archive.nytimes.com/learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/may-1-1992-victim-rodney-kings-asks-can-we-all-get-along/ https://archive.nytimes.com/learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/...
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Yes, I said it seemed like a reference. A reference is different than a comparison. What is the comparison to the company? Can you explain it to me?
        lovich 2y ago
        The literal first sentence of your comment is > I don't think there was a comparison between WordPress and Rodney King You did not say it “seemed” like a reference, you explicitly said there was no comparison
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I dont know what part of this is confusing you. There is no comparison. there is a reference. A reference is not a comparison. You also didnt answer my question. You are claiming there is an inferred comparison. If so, please explain what two things are being compared, and in what way.
        lovich 2y ago
        Does the reference have no interaction with the rest of the blog post? If I mention that I have a big idea and then mention how a great man also once stated “I have a dream”, do you think I’m referencing MLK with no inferred comparison to my idea? Referencing something in light of your previous statement out of nowhere for a public blog post is a comparison. If you think this just happened randomly and was completely divorced from the previous context then I struggle to understand how to communicate with you
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- flutas 2y ago
  > I wonder how much of that was just echoing the corporate mission statement of Automattic for the sake of any colleagues who happen to stumble across the blog. It's fairly obvious that's what it is. Or they are being forced to post "I stayed", as nearly everyone that I've come across that works there is posting it. To the point where it doesn't even feel organic. For anyone else that wants the latest drama: Matt seems to be weaponizing Automattic and CVE's against WP Engine now. https://x.com/automattic/status/1842612123488473341 https://x.com/automattic/status/1842612123488473341
  - Kye 2y ago
    Post deleted. What did it say?
    - ValentineC 2y ago
      The tweet has been deleted, but this other submission was in reply to it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41752289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41752289
    - flutas 2y ago
      The Tweets original content was[0]: > Automattic's security team has responsibly disclosed a vulnerability in @wp_acf to @wpengine. As is standard, they have 30 days to issue a fix before public disclosure. We have reserved this CVE for the issue: https://www.cve.org/CVERecord?id=CVE-2024-9529 https://www.cve.org/CVERecord?id=CVE-2024-9529 Basically announcing to the world that there is a CVE in a very widely used ("2MM+ sites") WP plugin, that also can't be patched as they banned the developers accounts from updating said plugin[1]. [0]: https://imgur.com/a/wf73amz https://imgur.com/a/wf73amz [1]: https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine-banned/ https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine-banned/
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        Perhaps Automattic's goal is to force WPEngine to host their plugin(s) elsewhere? And also force WPEngine to have their own plugin cache or plugin market? Or at least no longer rely on WordPress.org's plugin repo directly.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Thats an interesting sentiment to me. I dont have much trouble believing in the work, even in for-profit companies. For me, it is about the end product, and if it makes the world a better place or not. If it is net positive, than the work (as a whole), is meaningful. Everything beyond that is just degrees of efficiency. I conceptually like non-profits, but that seems tangential. Why would I discount my work due to comparison with a hypothetical alternative that is more efficient at doing good. >especially one that just makes blogs What's wrong with blogs? I like blogs.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  >I dont have much trouble believing in the work, even in for-profit companies. One of the things I liked about selling software is the knowledge that customers do value your software. If they didn't then they wouldn't put their hand in their pocket.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I feel the same way about drug making. Customers might wish new drugs were cheaper, but they are free to with cheaper options or generics. Meanwhile, today's blockbuster will be tomorrow's generic, and progressively more lives are saved.
    - mattmaroon 2y ago
      That may be true when we’re talking about investing in new drugs, but a whole lot of the pharmaceutical industry engages in rent-seeking behavior, and people are often not deep thinkers so their natural inclination is to just throw the baby out with the bath water.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        The rent seeking is pretty negligible when you zoom out in time. It is extremely hard to find a specific medication that is still on patent 20 years after approval. I think people are generally confused by things like insulin, where there are newer and better versions coming out continually, despite it being invented in the 1920s.
radley 2y ago
> especially one that just makes blogs Uhm, that's pretty reductive. Perhaps that's the difference?
twelve40 2y ago
I believe in the work they do. The web would be much sadder without standalone blogs and websites, they mostly power the diverse smaller outfits. Hate to see the entire world gobbled up and milked dry by some single-digit combo of youtube, insta, x, whatever.
- threatofrain 2y ago
  IMO the next generation of website tools are coming along in the form of drag-and-drop premade widgets and integrations to YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, etc. Almost all of WP value isn't composed of indie blogs and websites, almost all the value comes from business websites. If indie blogs and websites die it won't be because of WP because there will be other tools. Indie content of the WP variety is dying organically, or at the least the rising tide does not lift all boats. And if indie content creation moves to TikTok that's because it's what the next generation wants.
  - twelve40 2y ago
    > value comes from business websites I don't see a reason to exclude those from my earlier comment at all. Yes, they are very much a part of the deal too, whether ecom or whatever business they are in. Having independent "wp shopping carts" replaced by generic Prime dropshipping with both sides at the mercy of a monopolist would also be very sad. If there are people dedicated to improving the standalone alternative software and sustaining those efforts by making money off of it, i view it as a 100% positive.
  - emn13 2y ago
    Slight tangent; but arguments such as "if indie content creation moves to TikTok that's because it's what the next generation wants" are almost universally invalid. The reasons a trend emerges are complex and definitely not only down to an average preference nor simply a generational shift, though those factors might play a small role. There are at least 2 other major factors that outweigh those, and probably more. People routinely make choices that have long term outcomes they don't agree with; and we all know they do and thus the information industry quite explicitly exploits this - the difference between what we "really" want and short term impulses has never been larger due to such intentional exploitation. Secondly, network effects. The way intellectual property happens to work allows platforms to effectively own networks their user's create. A group of entirely rational users might well each individually choose to join a network since for them doing so is extremely valuable, even in the knowledge that it'd be better for everyone to choose a different alternative if they could manage to do so collectively, especially since IP laws mean it's quite unlikely for any such alternative not to eventually develop similar weaknesses. Business plans work when profiting off content involves controlling it simply because that's how the law pretty much defines it - IP doesn't support creativity directly, it supports monopolies and leaves the support to exploiting that monopoly. The implied argument sort of infers a cause by default - people are choosing the proverbial tiktok (or whatever other new thing), people are rational, therefore there must be a reason, therefore tiktok is better for people (and we don't need to know why). But each of those steps is quite weak; the overall link is tenuous at best.
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
>"[believing] in the work we do" This sentiment of 'believing' does really annoy me. There are individuals whose work is their passion (nothing wrong with that) but they judge everyone else, for example a potential job candidate through the same immature lens.

vunderba 2y ago

100% agreed - given that they published this under their own name though, I wonder how much of that was just echoing the corporate mission statement of Automattic for the sake of any colleagues who happen to stumble across the blog.

saghm 2y ago
I was a bit dubious about this point of view before reading the full post, but wow, the last couple paragraphs lay it on thick. Suing someone for using your open source product in their own product takes "courage"? Comparing the work of developing Wordpress to Rodney King? I want to give the author the benefit of the doubt, and maybe I'm too cynical, but this sounds even more corporate-y than a lot of stuff I've read on company-hosted blogs.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I don't think there was a comparison between WordPress and Rodney King. If so, what is the comparison being claimed. Is WordPress the cops? The one saying can't we get along? The way I read it at least, it was a simple reference and sentiment, not a comparison.
  - saghm 2y ago
    Fair enough. It still feels shoehorned in to me though, almost like an essay in school students are told to include a quote in their conclusion (something that happened in my English class at least once from what I can remember), which just adds to the vibe of this being "homework" to support their employer rather than coming across as authentic.
  - lovich 2y ago
    Literally the one saying can't we all get along is referencing Rodney King and inferring a comparison between them. For future readers the article at one point said >On May 1, 1992, a man who’d been horribly beaten by the L.A. police called for calm in five heartfelt, memorable words: “Can’t we all get along?” This is a reference to a statement by Rodney King near the end of the riot period. https://archive.nytimes.com/learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/may-1-1992-victim-rodney-kings-asks-can-we-all-get-along/ https://archive.nytimes.com/learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/...
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Yes, I said it seemed like a reference. A reference is different than a comparison. What is the comparison to the company? Can you explain it to me?
      - lovich 2y ago
        The literal first sentence of your comment is > I don't think there was a comparison between WordPress and Rodney King You did not say it “seemed” like a reference, you explicitly said there was no comparison
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I dont know what part of this is confusing you. There is no comparison. there is a reference. A reference is not a comparison. You also didnt answer my question. You are claiming there is an inferred comparison. If so, please explain what two things are being compared, and in what way.
        lovich 2y ago
        Does the reference have no interaction with the rest of the blog post? If I mention that I have a big idea and then mention how a great man also once stated “I have a dream”, do you think I’m referencing MLK with no inferred comparison to my idea? Referencing something in light of your previous statement out of nowhere for a public blog post is a comparison. If you think this just happened randomly and was completely divorced from the previous context then I struggle to understand how to communicate with you
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
flutas 2y ago
> I wonder how much of that was just echoing the corporate mission statement of Automattic for the sake of any colleagues who happen to stumble across the blog. It's fairly obvious that's what it is. Or they are being forced to post "I stayed", as nearly everyone that I've come across that works there is posting it. To the point where it doesn't even feel organic. For anyone else that wants the latest drama: Matt seems to be weaponizing Automattic and CVE's against WP Engine now. https://x.com/automattic/status/1842612123488473341 https://x.com/automattic/status/1842612123488473341
- Kye 2y ago
  Post deleted. What did it say?
  - ValentineC 2y ago
    The tweet has been deleted, but this other submission was in reply to it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41752289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41752289
  - flutas 2y ago
    The Tweets original content was[0]: > Automattic's security team has responsibly disclosed a vulnerability in @wp_acf to @wpengine. As is standard, they have 30 days to issue a fix before public disclosure. We have reserved this CVE for the issue: https://www.cve.org/CVERecord?id=CVE-2024-9529 https://www.cve.org/CVERecord?id=CVE-2024-9529 Basically announcing to the world that there is a CVE in a very widely used ("2MM+ sites") WP plugin, that also can't be patched as they banned the developers accounts from updating said plugin[1]. [0]: https://imgur.com/a/wf73amz https://imgur.com/a/wf73amz [1]: https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine-banned/ https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine-banned/
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago
      Perhaps Automattic's goal is to force WPEngine to host their plugin(s) elsewhere? And also force WPEngine to have their own plugin cache or plugin market? Or at least no longer rely on WordPress.org's plugin repo directly.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Thats an interesting sentiment to me. I dont have much trouble believing in the work, even in for-profit companies. For me, it is about the end product, and if it makes the world a better place or not. If it is net positive, than the work (as a whole), is meaningful. Everything beyond that is just degrees of efficiency. I conceptually like non-profits, but that seems tangential. Why would I discount my work due to comparison with a hypothetical alternative that is more efficient at doing good. >especially one that just makes blogs What's wrong with blogs? I like blogs.

tonyedgecombe 2y ago
>I dont have much trouble believing in the work, even in for-profit companies. One of the things I liked about selling software is the knowledge that customers do value your software. If they didn't then they wouldn't put their hand in their pocket.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I feel the same way about drug making. Customers might wish new drugs were cheaper, but they are free to with cheaper options or generics. Meanwhile, today's blockbuster will be tomorrow's generic, and progressively more lives are saved.
  - mattmaroon 2y ago
    That may be true when we’re talking about investing in new drugs, but a whole lot of the pharmaceutical industry engages in rent-seeking behavior, and people are often not deep thinkers so their natural inclination is to just throw the baby out with the bath water.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      The rent seeking is pretty negligible when you zoom out in time. It is extremely hard to find a specific medication that is still on patent 20 years after approval. I think people are generally confused by things like insulin, where there are newer and better versions coming out continually, despite it being invented in the 1920s.

radley 2y ago

> especially one that just makes blogs Uhm, that's pretty reductive. Perhaps that's the difference?

twelve40 2y ago

I believe in the work they do. The web would be much sadder without standalone blogs and websites, they mostly power the diverse smaller outfits. Hate to see the entire world gobbled up and milked dry by some single-digit combo of youtube, insta, x, whatever.

threatofrain 2y ago
IMO the next generation of website tools are coming along in the form of drag-and-drop premade widgets and integrations to YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, etc. Almost all of WP value isn't composed of indie blogs and websites, almost all the value comes from business websites. If indie blogs and websites die it won't be because of WP because there will be other tools. Indie content of the WP variety is dying organically, or at the least the rising tide does not lift all boats. And if indie content creation moves to TikTok that's because it's what the next generation wants.
- twelve40 2y ago
  > value comes from business websites I don't see a reason to exclude those from my earlier comment at all. Yes, they are very much a part of the deal too, whether ecom or whatever business they are in. Having independent "wp shopping carts" replaced by generic Prime dropshipping with both sides at the mercy of a monopolist would also be very sad. If there are people dedicated to improving the standalone alternative software and sustaining those efforts by making money off of it, i view it as a 100% positive.
- emn13 2y ago
  Slight tangent; but arguments such as "if indie content creation moves to TikTok that's because it's what the next generation wants" are almost universally invalid. The reasons a trend emerges are complex and definitely not only down to an average preference nor simply a generational shift, though those factors might play a small role. There are at least 2 other major factors that outweigh those, and probably more. People routinely make choices that have long term outcomes they don't agree with; and we all know they do and thus the information industry quite explicitly exploits this - the difference between what we "really" want and short term impulses has never been larger due to such intentional exploitation. Secondly, network effects. The way intellectual property happens to work allows platforms to effectively own networks their user's create. A group of entirely rational users might well each individually choose to join a network since for them doing so is extremely valuable, even in the knowledge that it'd be better for everyone to choose a different alternative if they could manage to do so collectively, especially since IP laws mean it's quite unlikely for any such alternative not to eventually develop similar weaknesses. Business plans work when profiting off content involves controlling it simply because that's how the law pretty much defines it - IP doesn't support creativity directly, it supports monopolies and leaves the support to exploiting that monopoly. The implied argument sort of infers a cause by default - people are choosing the proverbial tiktok (or whatever other new thing), people are rational, therefore there must be a reason, therefore tiktok is better for people (and we don't need to know why). But each of those steps is quite weak; the overall link is tenuous at best.

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago

>"[believing] in the work we do" This sentiment of 'believing' does really annoy me. There are individuals whose work is their passion (nothing wrong with that) but they judge everyone else, for example a potential job candidate through the same immature lens.