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I've noticed this too, and it seemed like dumb propaganda on the part of the Ukranians. When you hear someone describing their enemies in cartoonishly dehumaniz

I've noticed this too, and it seemed like dumb propaganda on the part of the Ukranians. When you hear someone describing their enemies in cartoonishly dehumanizing terms, it doesn't really increase your respect for them (the speaker). On the other hand, if your town was flattened, your family was killed, and you've been living in your basement for the last year, maybe that's just how you're going to be. Maybe no other response is reasonable. (I still think "orc" is weak though. Something real would be stronger. Even just "beasts". Though, animals are frequently nice. "Monster" is a little metaphorical, but, monsters are also real (in that metaphorical sense). That might be stronger.)

metabagel 2y ago
Orcs attack in hordes and fight battles. It’s an apt description for the Russian “meat wave” attacks.
Muromec 2y ago
You don't want to know what is actually used when "orc" is not enough.
jncfhnb 2y ago
The term originated due to their disorganized, unprofessional, looting heavy behaviors. It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion mostly because of how pathetic they are. One of the famous quotes of the war is “We’re lucky they’re so fucking stupid”. Which is entirely correct. The understanding of the war from the Ukrainian side is that the Russian army is a huge, dumb horde that vastly underperforms for its size. That doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous. But we’re years into this three day special military operation and we still see laughably wasteful efforts by the Russian military every week. Hordes of people running and driving through open fields against artillery strikes and FPV drones and suffering 90% casualties is the canonical mental image these days.
- orbital-decay 2y ago
  >It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion See the problem, that is incorrect. The term has been in use long before 2022. Originally it was coined during the 2015, and meant to be used for both sides due to how miserable and incompetent the entire thing looked (and was). That is the problem with the paper in question as well - authors don't seem to be familiar with the topic they're trying to research, thinking it's a single event. The timeframe in the dataset is 2015 to mid-2023, which makes very little sense. The use of Telegram for war reporting and the language have been completely different at various points of this timeframe. To add insult to injury, they are labeling various channels as pro-R or pro-U based on recent messages, but certain channels literally switched sides. They (and many others as well) wiped their message history multiple times, came back with slightly or completely different narratives, and their actual history can only be found in one of the Telegram-related cache services, if at all, as some of these services are either long dead or the info didn't survive. Some people who have been trying to profit from the war started multiple pro-R and pro-U media, including the Telegram channels, although 2022 quickly made them choose sides. So much happened in 8 years they tried to shove into an LLM and do a primitive sentiment analysis. Gathering the full picture on this timeframe should have been their main thing, as it's not trivial. Just like with anything on the internet and in real life across 8 years, especially if you don't speak any of the languages. These results are not going to be accurate.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Yes that’s what I meant. It originated earlier. It gained prominence in 2022 when they became perceived as toilet thieves. The meaning has evolved. I don’t really care about your telegram rant.
wiseowise 2y ago
> (I still think "orc" is weak though. Something real would be stronger. Even just "beasts". Though, animals are frequently nice. "Monster" is a little metaphorical, but, monsters are also real (in that metaphorical sense). That might be stronger.) You don’t understand Russian culture, they’ll wear Beast/Monster like a badge of honor. Orcs on the hand has negative connotation, because Orcs are usually bad guys.
- FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
  Fair point. Even in America there is "Monster energy drink", and you might exclaim while watching sports, "man, that guy's a beast". It's just hard to make words stick in general. The British made fun of "Yankee Doodle", so the Americans made it their themesong and marched to it.

metabagel 2y ago

Orcs attack in hordes and fight battles. It’s an apt description for the Russian “meat wave” attacks.

Muromec 2y ago

You don't want to know what is actually used when "orc" is not enough.

jncfhnb 2y ago

The term originated due to their disorganized, unprofessional, looting heavy behaviors. It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion mostly because of how pathetic they are. One of the famous quotes of the war is “We’re lucky they’re so fucking stupid”. Which is entirely correct. The understanding of the war from the Ukrainian side is that the Russian army is a huge, dumb horde that vastly underperforms for its size. That doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous. But we’re years into this three day special military operation and we still see laughably wasteful efforts by the Russian military every week. Hordes of people running and driving through open fields against artillery strikes and FPV drones and suffering 90% casualties is the canonical mental image these days.

orbital-decay 2y ago
>It has gained prominence in the 2022 invasion See the problem, that is incorrect. The term has been in use long before 2022. Originally it was coined during the 2015, and meant to be used for both sides due to how miserable and incompetent the entire thing looked (and was). That is the problem with the paper in question as well - authors don't seem to be familiar with the topic they're trying to research, thinking it's a single event. The timeframe in the dataset is 2015 to mid-2023, which makes very little sense. The use of Telegram for war reporting and the language have been completely different at various points of this timeframe. To add insult to injury, they are labeling various channels as pro-R or pro-U based on recent messages, but certain channels literally switched sides. They (and many others as well) wiped their message history multiple times, came back with slightly or completely different narratives, and their actual history can only be found in one of the Telegram-related cache services, if at all, as some of these services are either long dead or the info didn't survive. Some people who have been trying to profit from the war started multiple pro-R and pro-U media, including the Telegram channels, although 2022 quickly made them choose sides. So much happened in 8 years they tried to shove into an LLM and do a primitive sentiment analysis. Gathering the full picture on this timeframe should have been their main thing, as it's not trivial. Just like with anything on the internet and in real life across 8 years, especially if you don't speak any of the languages. These results are not going to be accurate.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Yes that’s what I meant. It originated earlier. It gained prominence in 2022 when they became perceived as toilet thieves. The meaning has evolved. I don’t really care about your telegram rant.

wiseowise 2y ago

> (I still think "orc" is weak though. Something real would be stronger. Even just "beasts". Though, animals are frequently nice. "Monster" is a little metaphorical, but, monsters are also real (in that metaphorical sense). That might be stronger.) You don’t understand Russian culture, they’ll wear Beast/Monster like a badge of honor. Orcs on the hand has negative connotation, because Orcs are usually bad guys.

FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
Fair point. Even in America there is "Monster energy drink", and you might exclaim while watching sports, "man, that guy's a beast". It's just hard to make words stick in general. The British made fun of "Yankee Doodle", so the Americans made it their themesong and marched to it.