6 ms·

I wish it was feasible to have alternative mobile systems, but it's not really. You can't simply give up every popular app for a system nobody else uses or dev

I wish it was feasible to have alternative mobile systems, but it's not really. You can't simply give up every popular app for a system nobody else uses or develops for. Sailfish has Android emulation, but good luck running banking apps without Google SafetyNet. Even pure Android ROMs, like LineageOS, can't do that. Also good luck with proprietary firmware for mobile networking and cameras. Another thing that usually holds back AOSP distributions, and will likely be even worse in a non-Android system.

beardyw 2y ago
But for an old phone a very open and developer friendly environment (Linux like maybe) is attractive. Sadly those available are limited to more modern phones, which is I think a mistake. Maybe the answer is a side loaded application with a ridiculous amount of permissions?
brunoqc 2y ago
> good luck running banking apps without Google SafetyNet. Doesn't most banks have a mobile version of their website. Maybe not the best but it could be a good compromise.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  If you want to go in and do the basics (check balance, do a normal transfer, look at activity) this can get you by. A lot of the more useful features tend to be app only though. E.g. "scan to deposit check" is an app only item for my bank.
  - hansvm 2y ago
    I can do that sort of thing from the Ally website. Which is good, because Google is actively killing off support for devices more than a few years old, and I can't run most new apps on my phone, banking or otherwise (old apps are hit-or-miss, but the practice of forcing updates to the latest version poisons most of them).
  - ggm 2y ago
    You got a cheque? How quaint. I haven't used one in almost 2 decades. (Australia) in fact when telstra refunded me $2.50 by cheque I simply threw it away. This has to be a predominantly American problem, right? I cannot imagine a cohort of Australian, Asian, New Zealand, British and European continental users noping out of an app because not cheque enabled.
    - Tor3 2y ago
      I'm as old as a dinosaur and I haven't used a cheque in my life, not even back when bank accounts were managed through this little paper book with numbers and stamps.
- izacus 2y ago
  Most banks here in Europe require Mobile apps to login into their website.
  - NotPractical 2y ago
    So the EU attempts to invade your privacy using smartphones [1] and forces duopoly-brand smartphones upon its citizens, yet it fails to compel Apple to allow true sideloading, so you're stuck choosing between "no freedom but some privacy" or "no privacy but some freedom"? Their digital policy initiatives overall seem like a net loss for EU citizens as it stands. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/19/24181214/eu-chat-control https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/19/24181214/eu-chat-control
    - kaliqt 2y ago
      The EU as a whole is a net loss for citizens, always has been.
    - izacus 2y ago
      You really had to stretch a lot of bullshit just to rant over chat control here, didn't you?
      - fractallyte 2y ago
        The point is that we're being forced into a duopoly, which is unacceptable.
      - NotPractical 2y ago
        I was trying to make a case that when you add up everything the EU has done recently with regards to digital policy, you get a net loss for EU citizens. Their attempt at chat control decrements the score by a significant amount. Amending the DMA to have it not be completely useless would increment it by a significant amount, but it is unknown if that will happen yet.
  - lobochrome 2y ago
    As far as I have evidence, that is not true in Germany. I have accounts with three banks, and all of them can be managed with SMS 2FA and web access.
- fuomag9 2y ago
  Here in Europe you cannot login to bank websites without the bank app on your phone for 2FA codes
  - daneel_w 2y ago
    Where in Europe? Everywhere on the continent? Certainly not in Sweden where I live. The major banks here use 2FA but not mandated to a mobile app.
    - folmar 2y ago
      Not in Poland either. Pretty much every bank has also SMS 2FA available.
      - ksec 2y ago
        I remember Poland has a very late cycle of sunsetting 2G / 3G. Which makes SMS 2FA not very secure ( other than Social Engineering ).
  - ekianjo 2y ago
    Why don't they use a third party authenticator instead?
  - anondane 2y ago
    That's simply not factually correct. You can use bank web sites entirely without a smartphone. Banks supply this option as there are really - surprise! - people without smart phones who still has money. My own bank does not even use 2FA. I log in using the officiel state sponsored digital ID (yes, without having a smartphone). This is in Denmark. (sorry about the new anon account, it's been so long since I posted I've forgotten my old account. Perhaps I should use a PW mgr...)
  - Tor3 2y ago
    Europe is not one single country, and for me that statement is 100% untrue.
silisili 2y ago
Today sure, it just needs support from a major player. Not -that- long ago, nearly every mfg had their own OS(Blackberry, Meego/Symbian, Win Mobile, Palm, etc) and each had enough apps. If Samsung or Huawei or probably even Motorola decided to ditch Android and go all in on Sailfish, we'd see support for apps in short order. But as a third party OS you have to install yourself, it's basically dead in the water. What BlackBerry did before giving up was a smart approach, they basically just converted Android apps to BlackBerry ones for you. And that'd be a fast way to get bootstrapped. They just didn't have enough steam left in them, sadly.
- FormerBandmate 2y ago
  BlackBerry was a huge player. They declined, as with Nokia, entirely because they didn’t use a platform
  - silisili 2y ago
    Well, their problems were manifold and I think the movie does a decent job explaining them. Highly recommend, if you haven't seen it yet. They didn't evolve, took the iPhone as a joke, and when finally playing catch-up, the hardware was awful. If they'd have seen the writing on the wall and responded in kind, I think we'd have all three players around today. Nokia...I don't even want to talk about. I'm still half convinced it was a sabotage job.
    - numpad0 2y ago
      There was nothing awful about hardware. But they did not run Android, and that was enough to bring the whole company down.
      - silisili 2y ago
        From Wikipedia - The Blackberry Storm sold 500,000 units in its first month and 1 million units by January 2009.[15] However, Verizon had to replace almost all of the one million Storm smartphones sold in 2008 due to issues with the SurePress touch screen [16] and claimed $500 million in losses.
SoftTalker 2y ago
Does it have good messaging and maps? That’s 90% of my phone usage. I don’t do banking on my phone.
- nextos 2y ago
  It has outstanding offline maps and navigation. One of its strongest points. Messaging support depends on the protocol. Very good for Telegram, good for Matrix and Signal. Lots of people use e.g. WhatsApp through the Android emulation layer.
gbraad 2y ago
>SafetyNet PlayIntegrityFix I hear
- gbraad 2y ago
  for the downvoter, it is a tool people use to deal with this.
stiray 2y ago
Yep, if you capitulate from the start than nothing changes. And you as a user are giving them a chance to lock you into custom OTPs (that are just little changed standard OTP to force you to use their app so they can track you, steal your contacts and god knows what else (i have reversed it, got the seed and i am running it from shell as I was sick of it) even if they have a classic web page. Everyone just agreed that it is fine if certificates are no longer used for web apps (even with a fully standardized pkcs#12 tokens), everyone just agreed that bank is using some non-standard otp generator, everyone just agreed with everything. Now you will soon have to pay heating in car on monthly basis. Stop agreeing. Start complaining. Now and you. Sailfish on Sony Xperia 10 works like a charm, with working things that even modded roms are having issue with. If you fight it back... I am running my banking app (that they have even if they also have a web based app) for 4 years now without any issues, they did a major rewrite in between, but quite frankly in most of cases Safety-net is just a bunch of sand into eyes of security, if implemented right it might have impact but at the end most of banking banks are reducing it to if statement (that i patched). Yep, true that normal user cant do this, but this is users call. Complain to financial ombudsman, complain to the bank, demand a way for you to authenticate if you are paying for the product, complain bank supporting phone monopoly etc. Harass developers that decided to verify if phone is rooted, prove in media that they are just a bunch of kids having a boner on security they don't understand (which is a huge fact in all annoying login schemes, from mail to sms etc., OTP was more than enough (sms... giggling... ss7 access on tor for 500 dollars monthly) Actually you are addressing wrong problem. It starts somewhere else, when you want to use Bluetooth hardware that has a custom app to use it and you cant use it on Sailfish while you cant use it in Android layer as there is no bluetooth pass-trough. Here I vote with my wallet, not buying such devices and waiting for Sailfish to implement it.
lproven 2y ago
> I wish it was feasible to have alternative mobile systems, but it's not really. I think there is a possible exception here. I mean, firstly, yes, sadly this is largely true. I had a Blackberry Passport, a beautiful handset running the QNX-based BB X OS. Over a year of ownership it gradually got less and less useful as app vendors turned off BB X support. No FB IM, no Whatsapp, and I have a phone that won't let me text with 90% of the most-contacted people on my phone. And in those days (2014-2015) I did much less with my phone than now. But I also own 2 little-used tablets. I use tablets for watching films and TV, reading books, occasionally email. I don't do any of the mobile-phone stuff on my tablets, and they do not have SIM cards in them. I would have as much use for a FOSS-powered tablet as I do for an Android or iOS tablet. Poor patchy phone support does not cut it, sadly, and that's more than doubly so without apps. But good support for at least one currently-available cheap Chinese tablet would be of legitimate interest to me.
Tepix 2y ago
> You can't simply give up every popular app for a system nobody else uses or develops for. Perhaps the solution for such a phone is to make PWAs feasible for every kind of app? I guess it would need a few essential built-in apps (something like an Apple Health analog) but hopefully the rest could be web apps with extra privileges, if needed and approved by the user. Is geofencing already possible with PWAs? I.e. location based events? If not, that would also have to be a builtin (helper) app.

beardyw 2y ago

But for an old phone a very open and developer friendly environment (Linux like maybe) is attractive. Sadly those available are limited to more modern phones, which is I think a mistake. Maybe the answer is a side loaded application with a ridiculous amount of permissions?

brunoqc 2y ago

> good luck running banking apps without Google SafetyNet. Doesn't most banks have a mobile version of their website. Maybe not the best but it could be a good compromise.

zamadatix 2y ago
If you want to go in and do the basics (check balance, do a normal transfer, look at activity) this can get you by. A lot of the more useful features tend to be app only though. E.g. "scan to deposit check" is an app only item for my bank.
- hansvm 2y ago
  I can do that sort of thing from the Ally website. Which is good, because Google is actively killing off support for devices more than a few years old, and I can't run most new apps on my phone, banking or otherwise (old apps are hit-or-miss, but the practice of forcing updates to the latest version poisons most of them).
- ggm 2y ago
  You got a cheque? How quaint. I haven't used one in almost 2 decades. (Australia) in fact when telstra refunded me $2.50 by cheque I simply threw it away. This has to be a predominantly American problem, right? I cannot imagine a cohort of Australian, Asian, New Zealand, British and European continental users noping out of an app because not cheque enabled.
  - Tor3 2y ago
    I'm as old as a dinosaur and I haven't used a cheque in my life, not even back when bank accounts were managed through this little paper book with numbers and stamps.
izacus 2y ago
Most banks here in Europe require Mobile apps to login into their website.
- NotPractical 2y ago
  So the EU attempts to invade your privacy using smartphones [1] and forces duopoly-brand smartphones upon its citizens, yet it fails to compel Apple to allow true sideloading, so you're stuck choosing between "no freedom but some privacy" or "no privacy but some freedom"? Their digital policy initiatives overall seem like a net loss for EU citizens as it stands. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/19/24181214/eu-chat-control https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/19/24181214/eu-chat-control
  - kaliqt 2y ago
    The EU as a whole is a net loss for citizens, always has been.
  - izacus 2y ago
    You really had to stretch a lot of bullshit just to rant over chat control here, didn't you?
    - fractallyte 2y ago
      The point is that we're being forced into a duopoly, which is unacceptable.
    - NotPractical 2y ago
      I was trying to make a case that when you add up everything the EU has done recently with regards to digital policy, you get a net loss for EU citizens. Their attempt at chat control decrements the score by a significant amount. Amending the DMA to have it not be completely useless would increment it by a significant amount, but it is unknown if that will happen yet.
- lobochrome 2y ago
  As far as I have evidence, that is not true in Germany. I have accounts with three banks, and all of them can be managed with SMS 2FA and web access.
fuomag9 2y ago
Here in Europe you cannot login to bank websites without the bank app on your phone for 2FA codes
- daneel_w 2y ago
  Where in Europe? Everywhere on the continent? Certainly not in Sweden where I live. The major banks here use 2FA but not mandated to a mobile app.
  - folmar 2y ago
    Not in Poland either. Pretty much every bank has also SMS 2FA available.
    - ksec 2y ago
      I remember Poland has a very late cycle of sunsetting 2G / 3G. Which makes SMS 2FA not very secure ( other than Social Engineering ).
- ekianjo 2y ago
  Why don't they use a third party authenticator instead?
- anondane 2y ago
  That's simply not factually correct. You can use bank web sites entirely without a smartphone. Banks supply this option as there are really - surprise! - people without smart phones who still has money. My own bank does not even use 2FA. I log in using the officiel state sponsored digital ID (yes, without having a smartphone). This is in Denmark. (sorry about the new anon account, it's been so long since I posted I've forgotten my old account. Perhaps I should use a PW mgr...)
- Tor3 2y ago
  Europe is not one single country, and for me that statement is 100% untrue.

silisili 2y ago

Today sure, it just needs support from a major player. Not -that- long ago, nearly every mfg had their own OS(Blackberry, Meego/Symbian, Win Mobile, Palm, etc) and each had enough apps. If Samsung or Huawei or probably even Motorola decided to ditch Android and go all in on Sailfish, we'd see support for apps in short order. But as a third party OS you have to install yourself, it's basically dead in the water. What BlackBerry did before giving up was a smart approach, they basically just converted Android apps to BlackBerry ones for you. And that'd be a fast way to get bootstrapped. They just didn't have enough steam left in them, sadly.

FormerBandmate 2y ago
BlackBerry was a huge player. They declined, as with Nokia, entirely because they didn’t use a platform
- silisili 2y ago
  Well, their problems were manifold and I think the movie does a decent job explaining them. Highly recommend, if you haven't seen it yet. They didn't evolve, took the iPhone as a joke, and when finally playing catch-up, the hardware was awful. If they'd have seen the writing on the wall and responded in kind, I think we'd have all three players around today. Nokia...I don't even want to talk about. I'm still half convinced it was a sabotage job.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    There was nothing awful about hardware. But they did not run Android, and that was enough to bring the whole company down.
    - silisili 2y ago
      From Wikipedia - The Blackberry Storm sold 500,000 units in its first month and 1 million units by January 2009.[15] However, Verizon had to replace almost all of the one million Storm smartphones sold in 2008 due to issues with the SurePress touch screen [16] and claimed $500 million in losses.

SoftTalker 2y ago

Does it have good messaging and maps? That’s 90% of my phone usage. I don’t do banking on my phone.

nextos 2y ago
It has outstanding offline maps and navigation. One of its strongest points. Messaging support depends on the protocol. Very good for Telegram, good for Matrix and Signal. Lots of people use e.g. WhatsApp through the Android emulation layer.

gbraad 2y ago

>SafetyNet PlayIntegrityFix I hear

gbraad 2y ago
for the downvoter, it is a tool people use to deal with this.

stiray 2y ago

Yep, if you capitulate from the start than nothing changes. And you as a user are giving them a chance to lock you into custom OTPs (that are just little changed standard OTP to force you to use their app so they can track you, steal your contacts and god knows what else (i have reversed it, got the seed and i am running it from shell as I was sick of it) even if they have a classic web page. Everyone just agreed that it is fine if certificates are no longer used for web apps (even with a fully standardized pkcs#12 tokens), everyone just agreed that bank is using some non-standard otp generator, everyone just agreed with everything. Now you will soon have to pay heating in car on monthly basis. Stop agreeing. Start complaining. Now and you. Sailfish on Sony Xperia 10 works like a charm, with working things that even modded roms are having issue with. If you fight it back... I am running my banking app (that they have even if they also have a web based app) for 4 years now without any issues, they did a major rewrite in between, but quite frankly in most of cases Safety-net is just a bunch of sand into eyes of security, if implemented right it might have impact but at the end most of banking banks are reducing it to if statement (that i patched). Yep, true that normal user cant do this, but this is users call. Complain to financial ombudsman, complain to the bank, demand a way for you to authenticate if you are paying for the product, complain bank supporting phone monopoly etc. Harass developers that decided to verify if phone is rooted, prove in media that they are just a bunch of kids having a boner on security they don't understand (which is a huge fact in all annoying login schemes, from mail to sms etc., OTP was more than enough (sms... giggling... ss7 access on tor for 500 dollars monthly) Actually you are addressing wrong problem. It starts somewhere else, when you want to use Bluetooth hardware that has a custom app to use it and you cant use it on Sailfish while you cant use it in Android layer as there is no bluetooth pass-trough. Here I vote with my wallet, not buying such devices and waiting for Sailfish to implement it.

lproven 2y ago

> I wish it was feasible to have alternative mobile systems, but it's not really. I think there is a possible exception here. I mean, firstly, yes, sadly this is largely true. I had a Blackberry Passport, a beautiful handset running the QNX-based BB X OS. Over a year of ownership it gradually got less and less useful as app vendors turned off BB X support. No FB IM, no Whatsapp, and I have a phone that won't let me text with 90% of the most-contacted people on my phone. And in those days (2014-2015) I did much less with my phone than now. But I also own 2 little-used tablets. I use tablets for watching films and TV, reading books, occasionally email. I don't do any of the mobile-phone stuff on my tablets, and they do not have SIM cards in them. I would have as much use for a FOSS-powered tablet as I do for an Android or iOS tablet. Poor patchy phone support does not cut it, sadly, and that's more than doubly so without apps. But good support for at least one currently-available cheap Chinese tablet would be of legitimate interest to me.

Tepix 2y ago

> You can't simply give up every popular app for a system nobody else uses or develops for. Perhaps the solution for such a phone is to make PWAs feasible for every kind of app? I guess it would need a few essential built-in apps (something like an Apple Health analog) but hopefully the rest could be web apps with extra privileges, if needed and approved by the user. Is geofencing already possible with PWAs? I.e. location based events? If not, that would also have to be a builtin (helper) app.