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This is the last thing I am going to say to you, after twice now I have told you I am done with this conversation. There is absolutely nothing further to discu

This is the last thing I am going to say to you, after twice now I have told you I am done with this conversation. There is absolutely nothing further to discuss between us, but I want to make this point abundantly clear for anyone who is clicking 'expand' on all of your downvoted comments: "Is that a real example?" Yes. It was one of the people who were specifically asking that this action be taken, after they cleaned out all of their local home depots and drove them out there and was having trouble with activation. That is just one person out of many who are trying to help, while you spend hours hovering in this thread looking to use your carefully crafted but incredibly transparent attempt to look very 'logical' and 'unbiased' as a cudgel, while you attempt to de-legitimize and minimize their efforts. Again, I feel sorry for you and hope you find peace within yourself (or at least go back to reddit).

seadan83 2y ago
> There is absolutely nothing further to discuss between us I would agree it is better ended. > I want to make this point abundantly clear for anyone who is clicking 'expand' on all of your downvoted comments In a similar vein, you did not identify any fake quotes that you accused me of, nor identified any unsupported claims (though I concede you could have identified one, which was poorly written and reasonably could have been considered a claim) > "Is that a real example?" Yes. That is excellent. Quite cool. > That is just one person out of many who are trying to help, while you spend hours hovering in this thread I am in a hotel right now. Staging and waiting to go in. My presence is not going to be a net benefit right now compared to my own resource usage. I'm going to be in western NC in a few days. FWIW > looking to use your carefully crafted but incredibly transparent attempt to look very 'logical' and 'unbiased' as a cudgel If it looks that way, and I never brought out the cudgel, how do you know it was dishonest and not just questions? I even agreed with and asked if you were talking about citizens or FEMA. You then went off accusing me of laying some trap and all these other things (after I _agreed_ with you!) You further accused me of saying civilians could not be first responders, a diatribe that put your words into my mouth. > while you attempt to de-legitimize and minimize their efforts. Respectfully, you read that in. You attributed motive. I am not a random person on Twitter or reddit just trying to dunk on you. I did not accept, at first read, that "first month free" was significant. I see how it is more so now. (And you accused me of extreme anti-Musk bias, to which is disproven when I say following everything I have changed my perspective. I see how first month free is helpful and supported a significant assistance, of which starlink was a very notable part). Yet, questioning "first month free", does not delegitimize what people are doing. It is skepticism. > hope you find peace within yourself FWIW. I am okay with all of this convo and have never been upset. Annoyed and disappointed perhaps, but not upset. I might not have clearly conveyed everything I wanted to, but my questions were honest questions here. Not logic traps. > (or at least go back to reddit). Ironic since I don't read reddit, and never once started an X (twitter) account. This is why I was pointing out and reminding you to avoid personal attacks & shallow dismissals (per the discussion guidelines). The guidelines say as conversations go on, they should get more interesting. Which is why I asked you to point out unsupported claims so you could illustrate why (and give more information, and add context and light). Instead you tellingly refused to point anything out, resorted to incorrect hyperbole and personal attacks. I feel that was about half of what you wrote in the end. I don't want to close on that. I did find 50% of what you had to say to be informative and genuinely interesting and did cure me of some ignorance (and i feel this would have been a very good convo had we been able to stick to that.)
- seadan83 2y ago
  At the risk of re-opening this.. I can concisely now say that all along I have only been asking: "is this useful?" I would postulate, for the starlink and month free to be useful the following are needed: (A) access to the device, (B) ability to pay (C) meaningful numbers deployed (D) no other alternatives (ie: existing conventional means) We hashed out A, B, D already. C is difficult to know, perhaps only SpaceX can answer. Counting twitter responses can give us a minimum, but that is only so useful. This response from Astroid I think exemplifies how this conversation went off the rails: > How poor appalachia is entirely irrelevant, the people aren't helicoptering out to bring StarLinks back to trick the community into getting locked into hardware. This is an example of arguing against an imagined conversation. Who is able, and how they are paying for the devices is important - otherwise they are not useful. The suggestion that I am instead implying a nefarious motive to get device lock in is imagined. That was not this conversation. A case study of what it looks like when people are talking at each other and not to each other.
  - inemesitaffia 2y ago
    C: More than whatever FEMA is providing. I've seen video of single people with more dishes than FEMA claimed. This is access at central locations where people gather. Retail stores, homes, government agencies like Police and fire, County Offices etc It's free at the point of use to residents so questions about paying are words in wind. This devices are for the use of first responders and temporary access for local residents. By first responders I don't mean government, not even State/Local. They already had dishes, before FEMA was there, before the cell providers were there, before any SpaceX intervention. and today there's still people without access to communications. Towers still gone, wired services out. And more starlink dishes coming in. There's flooded towns officially out of the disaster area where both FEMA and SpaceX aren't. For many people in the region, starlink dishes whether directly, on towers, or on cells on wheels or some other SATCOM provider was the first time they were able to communicate post disaster.
    - seadan83 2y ago
      > For many people in the region, starlink dishes whether directly, on towers, or on cells on wheels or some other SATCOM provider was the first time they were able to communicate post disaster. Re C: "Many" is not a specific number nor an estimate of magnitude. "I don't know" is fine. Nonetheless, more than zero, is still great. Re: first time. I find it odd to say that, since whomever brought the device in would have been the first communication. I've been on the ground for a week now. The utility of starlink is niche. Albeit, a useful niche. Is it someone's home not being flooded and all of their possessions not dumped across the street? No. Is it baby formula that is now badly needed, no. Hence, niche. My thoughts are now this whole thread/news "article" is hacker news clickbait. The only discussion needed here were really just two words, 'okay, great.' That and, donate to the red cross, BeLoved Asheville, or any church in western NC. This topic I believe started on twitter, I wish it stayed there. I am biased against technophilia, and wish data and facts could rule the day. That and I've learned to be skeptical of any claim, and technophilia is full of fanciful ckaims without evidence. I spent the day today pulling soaked insulation out of a home. They are going to be cold this winter, lost everything. The river nearby rose by 29 feet. That was just one home amongst many.

seadan83 2y ago

> There is absolutely nothing further to discuss between us I would agree it is better ended. > I want to make this point abundantly clear for anyone who is clicking 'expand' on all of your downvoted comments In a similar vein, you did not identify any fake quotes that you accused me of, nor identified any unsupported claims (though I concede you could have identified one, which was poorly written and reasonably could have been considered a claim) > "Is that a real example?" Yes. That is excellent. Quite cool. > That is just one person out of many who are trying to help, while you spend hours hovering in this thread I am in a hotel right now. Staging and waiting to go in. My presence is not going to be a net benefit right now compared to my own resource usage. I'm going to be in western NC in a few days. FWIW > looking to use your carefully crafted but incredibly transparent attempt to look very 'logical' and 'unbiased' as a cudgel If it looks that way, and I never brought out the cudgel, how do you know it was dishonest and not just questions? I even agreed with and asked if you were talking about citizens or FEMA. You then went off accusing me of laying some trap and all these other things (after I _agreed_ with you!) You further accused me of saying civilians could not be first responders, a diatribe that put your words into my mouth. > while you attempt to de-legitimize and minimize their efforts. Respectfully, you read that in. You attributed motive. I am not a random person on Twitter or reddit just trying to dunk on you. I did not accept, at first read, that "first month free" was significant. I see how it is more so now. (And you accused me of extreme anti-Musk bias, to which is disproven when I say following everything I have changed my perspective. I see how first month free is helpful and supported a significant assistance, of which starlink was a very notable part). Yet, questioning "first month free", does not delegitimize what people are doing. It is skepticism. > hope you find peace within yourself FWIW. I am okay with all of this convo and have never been upset. Annoyed and disappointed perhaps, but not upset. I might not have clearly conveyed everything I wanted to, but my questions were honest questions here. Not logic traps. > (or at least go back to reddit). Ironic since I don't read reddit, and never once started an X (twitter) account. This is why I was pointing out and reminding you to avoid personal attacks & shallow dismissals (per the discussion guidelines). The guidelines say as conversations go on, they should get more interesting. Which is why I asked you to point out unsupported claims so you could illustrate why (and give more information, and add context and light). Instead you tellingly refused to point anything out, resorted to incorrect hyperbole and personal attacks. I feel that was about half of what you wrote in the end. I don't want to close on that. I did find 50% of what you had to say to be informative and genuinely interesting and did cure me of some ignorance (and i feel this would have been a very good convo had we been able to stick to that.)

seadan83 2y ago
At the risk of re-opening this.. I can concisely now say that all along I have only been asking: "is this useful?" I would postulate, for the starlink and month free to be useful the following are needed: (A) access to the device, (B) ability to pay (C) meaningful numbers deployed (D) no other alternatives (ie: existing conventional means) We hashed out A, B, D already. C is difficult to know, perhaps only SpaceX can answer. Counting twitter responses can give us a minimum, but that is only so useful. This response from Astroid I think exemplifies how this conversation went off the rails: > How poor appalachia is entirely irrelevant, the people aren't helicoptering out to bring StarLinks back to trick the community into getting locked into hardware. This is an example of arguing against an imagined conversation. Who is able, and how they are paying for the devices is important - otherwise they are not useful. The suggestion that I am instead implying a nefarious motive to get device lock in is imagined. That was not this conversation. A case study of what it looks like when people are talking at each other and not to each other.
- inemesitaffia 2y ago
  C: More than whatever FEMA is providing. I've seen video of single people with more dishes than FEMA claimed. This is access at central locations where people gather. Retail stores, homes, government agencies like Police and fire, County Offices etc It's free at the point of use to residents so questions about paying are words in wind. This devices are for the use of first responders and temporary access for local residents. By first responders I don't mean government, not even State/Local. They already had dishes, before FEMA was there, before the cell providers were there, before any SpaceX intervention. and today there's still people without access to communications. Towers still gone, wired services out. And more starlink dishes coming in. There's flooded towns officially out of the disaster area where both FEMA and SpaceX aren't. For many people in the region, starlink dishes whether directly, on towers, or on cells on wheels or some other SATCOM provider was the first time they were able to communicate post disaster.
  - seadan83 2y ago
    > For many people in the region, starlink dishes whether directly, on towers, or on cells on wheels or some other SATCOM provider was the first time they were able to communicate post disaster. Re C: "Many" is not a specific number nor an estimate of magnitude. "I don't know" is fine. Nonetheless, more than zero, is still great. Re: first time. I find it odd to say that, since whomever brought the device in would have been the first communication. I've been on the ground for a week now. The utility of starlink is niche. Albeit, a useful niche. Is it someone's home not being flooded and all of their possessions not dumped across the street? No. Is it baby formula that is now badly needed, no. Hence, niche. My thoughts are now this whole thread/news "article" is hacker news clickbait. The only discussion needed here were really just two words, 'okay, great.' That and, donate to the red cross, BeLoved Asheville, or any church in western NC. This topic I believe started on twitter, I wish it stayed there. I am biased against technophilia, and wish data and facts could rule the day. That and I've learned to be skeptical of any claim, and technophilia is full of fanciful ckaims without evidence. I spent the day today pulling soaked insulation out of a home. They are going to be cold this winter, lost everything. The river nearby rose by 29 feet. That was just one home amongst many.