3 ms·

Skepticism is warranted here (as is the reminder that lack of evidence isn't definitive evidence against), but I think the specific takeaway is interesting:

Skepticism is warranted here (as is the reminder that lack of evidence isn't definitive evidence against), but I think the specific takeaway is interesting: social media use does not predict mental health problems in youth Which could indicate any number of things: - Social media use by itself doesn't predict mental health problems because kids without mental health problems also use social media. - Social media use by itself doesn't predict mental health problems because there are benefits to certain kids that offset the equivalent problems they would have in its absence (e.g., the closeted gay kid in a rural town would be depressed without supportive online communities). - Social media by itself doesn't predict mental health problems because the type of social media platform is more important than the binary of using/not using. - Social media by itself doesn't predict mental health problems because it exacerbates problems without necessarily causing new ones outright. - Social media by itself doesn't predict mental health problems because kids who don't use it are (sadly) more socially isolated and suffer as a result. And maybe none of those are true! But I'm curious to see if there's something unexpected going on.

Spivak 2y ago
Why is skepticism warranted? It's not an extraordinary claim by any stretch. The claim that social media does harm your mental health is the one that needs strong evidence supporting it. This reads like copium, you've set your priors all the way to "it's obviously true you can't convince me otherwise." Which then of course everything refuting it has to be literally air-tight, there's no way you hold that standard for other things. I think the reasonable read for someone who's priors are set to believe it's true would be, "Interesting, I guess the effect size isn't as pronounced and obvious as I'd previously assumed."
- elicksaur 2y ago
  > We uncovered significant factual errors, including inaccuracies in effect sizes, sample sizes, and study inclusion/exclusion criteria, which were used to conclude that the impact of social media use on mental health is indistinguishable from zero. https://www.afterbabel.com/p/fundamental-flaws-part-3 https://www.afterbabel.com/p/fundamental-flaws-part-3
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Yes, that's academic discourse for you. Why do you assume this critique is more authoritative than the paper? Would you dismiss the critique if it was the other direction?
    - ordu 2y ago
      Neither is more authoritative, but if we lay aside science to rely on our common sense, then we'll get to "we don't really know, but my guts say me that X is true", aren't we? If we look at the scientific consensus once again, we'll see that there is no scientific consensus. So the whole situation boils down to "we don't really know".
      - Spivak 2y ago
        I agree! Which is why I'm so surprised that folks feel so strongly one way or another about it when there's been so little consensus. To me the jury is very much still out on this one.
        xboxnolifes 2y ago
        Sounds like skepticism.
  - gopher_space 2y ago
    There were factual errors specific enough that the erroneous data could be used to support opposing conclusions? Everything about this lit review (sorry, meta-analysis) gets weird in the conclusions. It's like reading anthro papers written before the 70s.
- spondylosaurus 2y ago
  I think skepticism is warranted since (1) This study is specifically NOT making the claim "social media is definitely fine and good for kids," so really more like skepticism at anyone trying to draw a conclusion of "...and therefore we should let Instagram off the hook :)" and (2) There is a reasonable case to be made that a lot of adults say that social media makes them miserable, and therefore that probably extends to kids too, if not even more so. Like, for example, stuff about teen suicides that are linked to various happenings on social media: it's true that those happen. It's also true that teen suicide rates are higher now than they were a few decades ago. It's not definitively true that they happen in higher numbers than they would've without social media (e.g., teen bullying just has a new outlet), but it's also fair to suspect that there might possibly maybe be a connection, even an indirect one. No single study is definitive, including this one!
  - Spivak 2y ago
    This is a very long way of saying "I already believe it's true from anecdotal evidence and so will viscously critique anything that doesn't agree with my position." This paper can be wrong, but you're clearly not open to even the possibility that it's not.
    - spondylosaurus 2y ago
      The comment you're replying to is shorter than my original comment where I spitballed five different hypothetical scenarios to explain why the the paper's conclusion could be true? I think there's a solid chance it's true. I also think it's interesting that there's a discrepancy between studies like this and public perception of social media (i.e., that it's bad for kids). So I enjoy trying to feel out that discrepancy and what might be causing it.
      - Spivak 2y ago
        Which is why I said it reads like copium. It seems like you have an unwavering position that social media is bad for people's emotional states and mental health. And when presented some new evidence that challenges this belief your immediate response was to come up with a bunch of ways your core belief could still hold given the new evidence. That to me isn't coming at it with an open mind or with curiosity. Is it not interesting that there's maybe a different larger effect that explains people's observations?
- mistermann 2y ago
  > This reads like copium, you've set your priors all the way to "it's obviously true you can't convince me otherwise." Which then of course everything refuting it has to be literally air-tight, there's no way you hold that standard for other things. This phenomenon is part of the reason I'm skeptical of most any study, because I doubt the researchers don't have the same problem.
lovethevoid 2y ago
All good skeptical points, and unfortunately, there isn't a single good study on social media use and teens (that also doesn't completely ignore parents/environments). So we'll never know for the time being! Unfortunate to those who wanted a definitive answer (or to confirm/deny past beliefs).

Spivak 2y ago

Why is skepticism warranted? It's not an extraordinary claim by any stretch. The claim that social media does harm your mental health is the one that needs strong evidence supporting it. This reads like copium, you've set your priors all the way to "it's obviously true you can't convince me otherwise." Which then of course everything refuting it has to be literally air-tight, there's no way you hold that standard for other things. I think the reasonable read for someone who's priors are set to believe it's true would be, "Interesting, I guess the effect size isn't as pronounced and obvious as I'd previously assumed."

elicksaur 2y ago
> We uncovered significant factual errors, including inaccuracies in effect sizes, sample sizes, and study inclusion/exclusion criteria, which were used to conclude that the impact of social media use on mental health is indistinguishable from zero. https://www.afterbabel.com/p/fundamental-flaws-part-3 https://www.afterbabel.com/p/fundamental-flaws-part-3
- Spivak 2y ago
  Yes, that's academic discourse for you. Why do you assume this critique is more authoritative than the paper? Would you dismiss the critique if it was the other direction?
  - ordu 2y ago
    Neither is more authoritative, but if we lay aside science to rely on our common sense, then we'll get to "we don't really know, but my guts say me that X is true", aren't we? If we look at the scientific consensus once again, we'll see that there is no scientific consensus. So the whole situation boils down to "we don't really know".
    - Spivak 2y ago
      I agree! Which is why I'm so surprised that folks feel so strongly one way or another about it when there's been so little consensus. To me the jury is very much still out on this one.
      - xboxnolifes 2y ago
        Sounds like skepticism.
- gopher_space 2y ago
  There were factual errors specific enough that the erroneous data could be used to support opposing conclusions? Everything about this lit review (sorry, meta-analysis) gets weird in the conclusions. It's like reading anthro papers written before the 70s.
spondylosaurus 2y ago
I think skepticism is warranted since (1) This study is specifically NOT making the claim "social media is definitely fine and good for kids," so really more like skepticism at anyone trying to draw a conclusion of "...and therefore we should let Instagram off the hook :)" and (2) There is a reasonable case to be made that a lot of adults say that social media makes them miserable, and therefore that probably extends to kids too, if not even more so. Like, for example, stuff about teen suicides that are linked to various happenings on social media: it's true that those happen. It's also true that teen suicide rates are higher now than they were a few decades ago. It's not definitively true that they happen in higher numbers than they would've without social media (e.g., teen bullying just has a new outlet), but it's also fair to suspect that there might possibly maybe be a connection, even an indirect one. No single study is definitive, including this one!
- Spivak 2y ago
  This is a very long way of saying "I already believe it's true from anecdotal evidence and so will viscously critique anything that doesn't agree with my position." This paper can be wrong, but you're clearly not open to even the possibility that it's not.
  - spondylosaurus 2y ago
    The comment you're replying to is shorter than my original comment where I spitballed five different hypothetical scenarios to explain why the the paper's conclusion could be true? I think there's a solid chance it's true. I also think it's interesting that there's a discrepancy between studies like this and public perception of social media (i.e., that it's bad for kids). So I enjoy trying to feel out that discrepancy and what might be causing it.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      Which is why I said it reads like copium. It seems like you have an unwavering position that social media is bad for people's emotional states and mental health. And when presented some new evidence that challenges this belief your immediate response was to come up with a bunch of ways your core belief could still hold given the new evidence. That to me isn't coming at it with an open mind or with curiosity. Is it not interesting that there's maybe a different larger effect that explains people's observations?
mistermann 2y ago
> This reads like copium, you've set your priors all the way to "it's obviously true you can't convince me otherwise." Which then of course everything refuting it has to be literally air-tight, there's no way you hold that standard for other things. This phenomenon is part of the reason I'm skeptical of most any study, because I doubt the researchers don't have the same problem.

lovethevoid 2y ago

All good skeptical points, and unfortunately, there isn't a single good study on social media use and teens (that also doesn't completely ignore parents/environments). So we'll never know for the time being! Unfortunate to those who wanted a definitive answer (or to confirm/deny past beliefs).