5 ms·

I don't think I can do SRS. My dopamine system is at a point where I can't do anything for a long time that isn't interesting, has immediate or intermediate rew

by lxe 2y ago

I don't think I can do SRS. My dopamine system is at a point where I can't do anything for a long time that isn't interesting, has immediate or intermediate rewards, or can capture attention for a long time. And on top of that, repeating that habit requires all these criteria. Examples: Scrolling on the phone?: Basically direct dopamine injected into my brain. Can do indefinitely. Not good. Programming? Sure I can put a few hours in, or even days if building quick prototypes where the payoff is imminent. Reading? Can go on indefinitely, depending on the book: it's just continual stream of interesting immersive stuff Exercise? Well that depends on the activity. Running indoors without any stimulation: absolutely cannot do. Cycling or running or walking outside with an audiobook, or music? Absolutely: constant stimulation plus endorphins. Learning Piano? Only if I can bang out a few good tunes immediately in the session, then I can allow myself to struggle with the difficult stuff in between. Absolutely cannot and won't do rote deliberate practice. This hinders my progress significantly, but at least I have fun. Learning a language? Well, unless I can get imminent rewards, or be continually interested and engaged, there's just no way I'll be able to do this. And I feel like rote, deliberate practice is just impossible for me to build a habit out of. One way I know for a fact that I can learn another language is through necessity to communicate with it. Let's say I'm thrown into an environment where the ONLY way I can get anything done is through having to communicate directly, without the aid of translators or tools. I think this is how babies learn.

hintymad 2y ago
> I don't think I can do SRS No need. :-) Comprehensible Input and immersive language usage can be your superpower.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  With old-school graded readers. Turns out that the people in past centuries who we ridiculed for their antiquated approaches for learning languages all spoke multiple languages. They didn't have comic books, though, which are another good source of interesting reading material that also comes with elaborate visual hints to what is being said. If I were trying to learn Mandarin, I'd scour the internet for bootleg scans of Jademan comics from the 80s.
  - hintymad 2y ago
    Yes. That's how I learned my native language and that's how I learned other languages. Super effective, and super fun. No rote memory whatsoever. BTW, Chinese didn't have a tradition of producing comic books, but they were big on turning classics into so-called 小人书，a perfect source for learning authentic, highly contextual, yet simple Chinese. Here is an example: http://www.laohuabao.com/xiaorenshu/gudian/9/113957717.html http://www.laohuabao.com/xiaorenshu/gudian/9/113957717.html
  - Baeocystin 2y ago
    Slight aside, but I learned to read with Asterix & Obelix & Tintin. The Asterix series in particular was fantastic for reading the same story in difficulty languages, and savoring the wordplay in each, and how the translators played with things. Having visual context to go with the words themselves was such a boon, I really am surprised the approach isn't given more legitimate respect.
  - hunter-gatherer 2y ago
    Comic books are especially helpful for conversation because they are often written in that sort of "what one would really say" style, which is extrememy helpful for speaking more native. When I was learning Finnish I found a set of translated Garfield books that were really helpful.
- laurentlb 2y ago
  I've recently discovered this approach, and I really like it. I've looked at ways to make it more interactive / gamified, and I've made a prototype with with simple interactive stories (text adventures), designed for language learners (https://lingostories.org https://lingostories.org - 100% free). I'm still trying to figure out what the next steps should be to make it more useful, but some people already enjoy it.
  - NoInkling 2y ago
    The main thing learners utilizing comprehensible input need is volume, so if you actually want to make it useful as more than a one-off novelty, your priority kind of needs to be in pumping out the content (while keeping it relatively interesting since that's also important). That's really the hard part. I will also say that I'm not personally convinced that "here's the words you heard, now tap them in order" minigames are very helpful. Other than that, the features and functionality are nice. Reminds me of Duolingo stories, which is their best content IMO.
    - laurentlb 2y ago
      Thanks a lot, I appreciate the feedback! Indeed, Duolingo Stories are the part of Duolingo I enjoyed the most too. Taping words: I sometimes find it useful to focus my listening and try to recognize the words. But I'm not sure about the design here and maybe I should disable it by default. Thanks again!
jmyeet 2y ago
You're quite literally describing textbook ADHD symptoms. If you haven't already, you may want to get assessed.
- Apfel 2y ago
  I'm someone who was perfectly able to use anki and learn chinese to a decent level with fairly intense combined-type untreated (at the time) ADHD. What you need is a compelling reason to learn (for me, it was the fear of letting down my wife by not being able to talk to her family).
  - sn9 2y ago
    The ability to focus on some things but not others is perfectly consistent with ADHD. Disordered attention is the whole deal. You might find it easy but that doesn't mean others will.
    - atomicUpdate 2y ago
      > The ability to focus on some things but not others is perfectly consistent with ADHD. This is an insanely broad definition that literally the entire population would fall under. > You might find it easy but that doesn't mean others will. No one finds concentrating on any and every subject easy. Assuming this is due to ADHD, and not something in their control, is a cop out.
      - sn9 2y ago
        Overly literal bad faith interpretations are a waste of everyone's time. Try using context and engaging in good faith to deal with the intended meaning of someone's words or don't bother interacting.
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    Ignore them. There's a belief system that sees a lack of success in anything that one wants to do as illness or witchcraft. For them, a person doesn't lack motivation to practice something because that thing is difficult and exhausting and one can't always see a sufficient reward (or chance of gaining that reward in a reasonable amount of time) in the end. For them, it's always going to be an illness or a curse that is stealing away your ability to achieve your true desires. They might be recommending pharma here, but it would be prayer on another forum, or more protein intake on a third.
swatcoder 2y ago
> I don't think I can do SRS. My dopamine system... I'm willing to bet you've never had probes analyzing anything about your dopamine system and how it responds to any of the activities you go on to describe. More likely, you've started using trendy pseudo-scientific jargon to justify why you believe yourself to be physiologically limited. Do you struggle to see through or enjoy to some of those activities? So be it. But chalking that up to some scientific sounding stuff you pieced together over the years just hardens those limitations. It's a very bad habit that's become really common lately. I strongly recommend trying to break it. It'll open up some doors that you're currently keeping shut.
- lxe 2y ago
  s/dopamine/motivation/g You're right but the core of my sentiment stays the same
  - tayo42 2y ago
    I think my language learning problem is motivation. Reading this post, that is alot of work, for something that doesn't have clear pay off. I think it would be cool to be able to speak Spanish and Mandarin(and others) But there isn't that much practicalness for me it especially when everyone speaks English.
  - ZephyrBlu 2y ago
    Have you ever actually tried to learn a language? I'm learning Korean as a native English speaker. I thought it would be a grind, which it kind of is, but learning new words and grammar is actually really fun. I use anki cards and get a dopamine hit whenever I remember the word correctly.
- kanbankaren 2y ago
  Yeah, I think OP drank the kool-aid on neurotransmitters.
- haliskerbas 2y ago
  I feel similar to how the parent commenter feels, but describe it using different words. Therapists and psychiatrists will use similar language, dopamine, motivation, and executive function. How do you recommend one does this? > I strongly recommend trying to break it I currently try to hack my main activities to prevent myself from being too lazy to do them. Would be happy to hear your suggestions!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
blakedzc 2y ago
> Learning a language? Well, unless I can get imminent rewards, or be continually interested and engaged, there's just no way I'll be able to do this. And I feel like rote, deliberate practice is just impossible for me to build a habit out of. Create your own environment. Set your devices to the language you want to study. Consume content in that language. Instead of doing X in English, do X in your target language. It can be a processes of enriching substitution. This helps with technical skills as well, as there are also far fewer resources when you search an error message, and you need to be able to mentally grep the text quickly for what you're after.

by lxe 2y ago

hintymad 2y ago

> I don't think I can do SRS No need. :-) Comprehensible Input and immersive language usage can be your superpower.

pessimizer 2y ago
With old-school graded readers. Turns out that the people in past centuries who we ridiculed for their antiquated approaches for learning languages all spoke multiple languages. They didn't have comic books, though, which are another good source of interesting reading material that also comes with elaborate visual hints to what is being said. If I were trying to learn Mandarin, I'd scour the internet for bootleg scans of Jademan comics from the 80s.
- hintymad 2y ago
  Yes. That's how I learned my native language and that's how I learned other languages. Super effective, and super fun. No rote memory whatsoever. BTW, Chinese didn't have a tradition of producing comic books, but they were big on turning classics into so-called 小人书，a perfect source for learning authentic, highly contextual, yet simple Chinese. Here is an example: http://www.laohuabao.com/xiaorenshu/gudian/9/113957717.html http://www.laohuabao.com/xiaorenshu/gudian/9/113957717.html
- Baeocystin 2y ago
  Slight aside, but I learned to read with Asterix & Obelix & Tintin. The Asterix series in particular was fantastic for reading the same story in difficulty languages, and savoring the wordplay in each, and how the translators played with things. Having visual context to go with the words themselves was such a boon, I really am surprised the approach isn't given more legitimate respect.
- hunter-gatherer 2y ago
  Comic books are especially helpful for conversation because they are often written in that sort of "what one would really say" style, which is extrememy helpful for speaking more native. When I was learning Finnish I found a set of translated Garfield books that were really helpful.
laurentlb 2y ago
I've recently discovered this approach, and I really like it. I've looked at ways to make it more interactive / gamified, and I've made a prototype with with simple interactive stories (text adventures), designed for language learners (https://lingostories.org https://lingostories.org - 100% free). I'm still trying to figure out what the next steps should be to make it more useful, but some people already enjoy it.
- NoInkling 2y ago
  The main thing learners utilizing comprehensible input need is volume, so if you actually want to make it useful as more than a one-off novelty, your priority kind of needs to be in pumping out the content (while keeping it relatively interesting since that's also important). That's really the hard part. I will also say that I'm not personally convinced that "here's the words you heard, now tap them in order" minigames are very helpful. Other than that, the features and functionality are nice. Reminds me of Duolingo stories, which is their best content IMO.
  - laurentlb 2y ago
    Thanks a lot, I appreciate the feedback! Indeed, Duolingo Stories are the part of Duolingo I enjoyed the most too. Taping words: I sometimes find it useful to focus my listening and try to recognize the words. But I'm not sure about the design here and maybe I should disable it by default. Thanks again!

jmyeet 2y ago

You're quite literally describing textbook ADHD symptoms. If you haven't already, you may want to get assessed.

Apfel 2y ago
I'm someone who was perfectly able to use anki and learn chinese to a decent level with fairly intense combined-type untreated (at the time) ADHD. What you need is a compelling reason to learn (for me, it was the fear of letting down my wife by not being able to talk to her family).
- sn9 2y ago
  The ability to focus on some things but not others is perfectly consistent with ADHD. Disordered attention is the whole deal. You might find it easy but that doesn't mean others will.
  - atomicUpdate 2y ago
    > The ability to focus on some things but not others is perfectly consistent with ADHD. This is an insanely broad definition that literally the entire population would fall under. > You might find it easy but that doesn't mean others will. No one finds concentrating on any and every subject easy. Assuming this is due to ADHD, and not something in their control, is a cop out.
    - sn9 2y ago
      Overly literal bad faith interpretations are a waste of everyone's time. Try using context and engaging in good faith to deal with the intended meaning of someone's words or don't bother interacting.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  Ignore them. There's a belief system that sees a lack of success in anything that one wants to do as illness or witchcraft. For them, a person doesn't lack motivation to practice something because that thing is difficult and exhausting and one can't always see a sufficient reward (or chance of gaining that reward in a reasonable amount of time) in the end. For them, it's always going to be an illness or a curse that is stealing away your ability to achieve your true desires. They might be recommending pharma here, but it would be prayer on another forum, or more protein intake on a third.

swatcoder 2y ago

> I don't think I can do SRS. My dopamine system... I'm willing to bet you've never had probes analyzing anything about your dopamine system and how it responds to any of the activities you go on to describe. More likely, you've started using trendy pseudo-scientific jargon to justify why you believe yourself to be physiologically limited. Do you struggle to see through or enjoy to some of those activities? So be it. But chalking that up to some scientific sounding stuff you pieced together over the years just hardens those limitations. It's a very bad habit that's become really common lately. I strongly recommend trying to break it. It'll open up some doors that you're currently keeping shut.

lxe 2y ago
s/dopamine/motivation/g You're right but the core of my sentiment stays the same
- tayo42 2y ago
  I think my language learning problem is motivation. Reading this post, that is alot of work, for something that doesn't have clear pay off. I think it would be cool to be able to speak Spanish and Mandarin(and others) But there isn't that much practicalness for me it especially when everyone speaks English.
- ZephyrBlu 2y ago
  Have you ever actually tried to learn a language? I'm learning Korean as a native English speaker. I thought it would be a grind, which it kind of is, but learning new words and grammar is actually really fun. I use anki cards and get a dopamine hit whenever I remember the word correctly.
kanbankaren 2y ago
Yeah, I think OP drank the kool-aid on neurotransmitters.
haliskerbas 2y ago
I feel similar to how the parent commenter feels, but describe it using different words. Therapists and psychiatrists will use similar language, dopamine, motivation, and executive function. How do you recommend one does this? > I strongly recommend trying to break it I currently try to hack my main activities to prevent myself from being too lazy to do them. Would be happy to hear your suggestions!

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

blakedzc 2y ago

> Learning a language? Well, unless I can get imminent rewards, or be continually interested and engaged, there's just no way I'll be able to do this. And I feel like rote, deliberate practice is just impossible for me to build a habit out of. Create your own environment. Set your devices to the language you want to study. Consume content in that language. Instead of doing X in English, do X in your target language. It can be a processes of enriching substitution. This helps with technical skills as well, as there are also far fewer resources when you search an error message, and you need to be able to mentally grep the text quickly for what you're after.