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I'm surprised more didn't take the offer. Maybe they have a better package of shares in the company that's worth the wait? Otherwise it seems like a great offer

I'm surprised more didn't take the offer. Maybe they have a better package of shares in the company that's worth the wait? Otherwise it seems like a great offer to take even if you've enjoyed working there and support Matt and his public meltdowns.

senadir 2y ago
Automattic is a fully remote company, getting jobs in APAC, Africa, and europe is tricky, not a lot are going to throw that away and hunt for a job for 6 months.
- hshshshsvsv 2y ago
  Stupid question but where exactly in the world is getting a remote job not tricky?
  - genezeta 2y ago
    I may be wrong but I understand the comment above as saying that "getting jobs" in those places is now tricky. Not "getting remote jobs", just "getting jobs". In the sense that people who got now have a remote job at Automattic would have a hard time finding another job, even a non-remote one.
  - yellow_lead 2y ago
    I think in the US it's less tricky. There are much more openings without time zone issues.
    - tzs 2y ago
      Jurisdiction issues are also probably a big factor. If you have employees in N jurisdictions you potentially have to deal with N different sets of laws and regulations concerning income taxes, unemployment insurance taxes, health insurance, employment contracts, layoffs, maternity/paternity leave, unions, and probably many I've overlooked. Remote employees in the same city? Trivial. Different cities in the same county? Possibly slightly more work. Different counties in the state? Maybe a slight step up in work. Different states in the same country? Could be a big step up in work. Different countries? Likely much more work than for employees in your country. With employees in different states in your own country things will work similarly. The bureaucracy you have to deal with for an employee in Florida and for an employee in Washington, for example, will be fairly similar, and much more similar to each other than they are to the bureaucracy you'll be dealing with for your employee in say Germany.
      - alexp11223 2y ago
        I think most of the companies (most likely including Automattic) are not doing it like that for remote employees from other countries. They are just "hiring" them as contractors, that is formally it's just B2B, the employee would register some kind of individual business entity in their country, send invoices, pay taxes. The contract may include things like vacations, sick days, (home office) equipment compensation, N months notice/severance pay, but it has no connection to the laws for normal employees in that country. I think doing it differently would not be practical, because the company would have to maintain some kind of companies/offices in each country. Another option can be hiring the employee directly at the main company (not sure about US, but I am pretty sure it's possible at least for some countries in Europe), but it's also more complex and I am not sure if this would even make sense for the employee since e.g. they would not be able to access the benefits like healthcare remotely. And as long as the contract is good and the company is trustworthy, being a contractor/self-employed may have some advantages like lower taxes.
  - senadir 2y ago
    Getting remote jobs in general is tricky if you're not from certain countries. I'm from Algeria, Automattic was one of the few companies that hired there. Every other country would ask you to be in the US, or US timezone, or in a certain European country. Not all remote is built equal.
    - ufmace 2y ago
      This actually makes me really suspicious about Automattic. Companies generally don't refuse to hire outside of certain countries just to be jerks, they do it because complying with international tax obligations while paying employees in dozens of countries is complex and expensive. Given that, and the behavior we've seen from Matt and Automattic so far, what are the odds that they've actually got a bunch of really great international accountants and are doing everything correctly everywhere, versus they're just ignoring all of the tax laws and winging it, and are therefore at high risk of getting smacked down once the relevant authorities get wind of what's going on there?
      - kyleee 2y ago
        It feels like you are just piling on really by engaging in such speculation. If I am wrong though please share your expertise on the difficulties of hiring remote in Algeria.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - senadir 2y ago
        You seem to never been in that shoe (from a country no one hires from). Companies avoid that because it’s too much hassle. Automattic cares and goes through the hassle, simple as that. You’re also talking without concrete knowledge. We work as international contractors, we handle our own local taxes. Automattic pays us the gross salary and it’s up to you.
        hshshshsvsv 2y ago
  - slezyr 2y ago
    In Ukraine.
cpach 2y ago
It’s a tough job market, so I’m not surprised. Demand for developers/other tech roles and overall economy isn’t great right now.
- JeremyNT 2y ago
  And if you think that AI is going to eat away at dev jobs around the margins going forward, maybe you're thinking that you can't find another job within 6 months and even if you do it's likely to face an even more uncertain future. This is a great offer but "a bird in the hand" etc.
danpalmer 2y ago
I thought the same, but the thing to remember is that 80% of the employees who took the offer were in the WordPress part of the company. Automattic is at this point a bunch of loosely related companies, it’s understandable that the Pocket Casts team for example are probably quite disconnected from WordPress and the drama. In other words, for those actually affected by the drama, a much higher percentage left.
- paulgb 2y ago
  Right, but I think coalface’s point is that it’s a good deal regardless of the drama. I’ve never really hated a job in my career, but if at any point I had a chance to take a paid break and then get paid two salaries for a bit, I’d probably have taken it more times than not.
photomatt 2y ago
We have a special stock program called A12, and one cool feature of it is that you can still sell stock after you've left, with windows every six months. (You can only buy if you're currently employed, and it's downside protected, so you effectively have a 1x liquidation preference just like sophisticated investors.
xbmcuser 2y ago
Unless you have another job lined up the job market currently is not where everyone would just quit in my opinion.
jlarocco 2y ago
With the current job market, I'm surprised so many took it. Some people in my Linkedin network have been searching for tech and developer jobs for over 6 months. If it were me I would have stayed while I kept looking. It's always better to search for a job when you already have one, and you really don't know when/if the right thing will come along. On the other hand, it's a great mini-runway for people who want to start their own company.
zem 2y ago
I was effectively forced to take a similar "offer" recently (iow laid off with six months severance), and while I did end up getting another job relatively soon it was an extremely stressful time. I do not think I would have taken it voluntarily in the current economy, even if it did happen to benefit me in the end.

senadir 2y ago

Automattic is a fully remote company, getting jobs in APAC, Africa, and europe is tricky, not a lot are going to throw that away and hunt for a job for 6 months.

hshshshsvsv 2y ago
Stupid question but where exactly in the world is getting a remote job not tricky?
- genezeta 2y ago
  I may be wrong but I understand the comment above as saying that "getting jobs" in those places is now tricky. Not "getting remote jobs", just "getting jobs". In the sense that people who got now have a remote job at Automattic would have a hard time finding another job, even a non-remote one.
- yellow_lead 2y ago
  I think in the US it's less tricky. There are much more openings without time zone issues.
  - tzs 2y ago
    Jurisdiction issues are also probably a big factor. If you have employees in N jurisdictions you potentially have to deal with N different sets of laws and regulations concerning income taxes, unemployment insurance taxes, health insurance, employment contracts, layoffs, maternity/paternity leave, unions, and probably many I've overlooked. Remote employees in the same city? Trivial. Different cities in the same county? Possibly slightly more work. Different counties in the state? Maybe a slight step up in work. Different states in the same country? Could be a big step up in work. Different countries? Likely much more work than for employees in your country. With employees in different states in your own country things will work similarly. The bureaucracy you have to deal with for an employee in Florida and for an employee in Washington, for example, will be fairly similar, and much more similar to each other than they are to the bureaucracy you'll be dealing with for your employee in say Germany.
    - alexp11223 2y ago
      I think most of the companies (most likely including Automattic) are not doing it like that for remote employees from other countries. They are just "hiring" them as contractors, that is formally it's just B2B, the employee would register some kind of individual business entity in their country, send invoices, pay taxes. The contract may include things like vacations, sick days, (home office) equipment compensation, N months notice/severance pay, but it has no connection to the laws for normal employees in that country. I think doing it differently would not be practical, because the company would have to maintain some kind of companies/offices in each country. Another option can be hiring the employee directly at the main company (not sure about US, but I am pretty sure it's possible at least for some countries in Europe), but it's also more complex and I am not sure if this would even make sense for the employee since e.g. they would not be able to access the benefits like healthcare remotely. And as long as the contract is good and the company is trustworthy, being a contractor/self-employed may have some advantages like lower taxes.
- senadir 2y ago
  Getting remote jobs in general is tricky if you're not from certain countries. I'm from Algeria, Automattic was one of the few companies that hired there. Every other country would ask you to be in the US, or US timezone, or in a certain European country. Not all remote is built equal.
  - ufmace 2y ago
    This actually makes me really suspicious about Automattic. Companies generally don't refuse to hire outside of certain countries just to be jerks, they do it because complying with international tax obligations while paying employees in dozens of countries is complex and expensive. Given that, and the behavior we've seen from Matt and Automattic so far, what are the odds that they've actually got a bunch of really great international accountants and are doing everything correctly everywhere, versus they're just ignoring all of the tax laws and winging it, and are therefore at high risk of getting smacked down once the relevant authorities get wind of what's going on there?
    - kyleee 2y ago
      It feels like you are just piling on really by engaging in such speculation. If I am wrong though please share your expertise on the difficulties of hiring remote in Algeria.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - senadir 2y ago
      You seem to never been in that shoe (from a country no one hires from). Companies avoid that because it’s too much hassle. Automattic cares and goes through the hassle, simple as that. You’re also talking without concrete knowledge. We work as international contractors, we handle our own local taxes. Automattic pays us the gross salary and it’s up to you.
      - hshshshsvsv 2y ago
- slezyr 2y ago
  In Ukraine.

cpach 2y ago

It’s a tough job market, so I’m not surprised. Demand for developers/other tech roles and overall economy isn’t great right now.

JeremyNT 2y ago
And if you think that AI is going to eat away at dev jobs around the margins going forward, maybe you're thinking that you can't find another job within 6 months and even if you do it's likely to face an even more uncertain future. This is a great offer but "a bird in the hand" etc.

danpalmer 2y ago

I thought the same, but the thing to remember is that 80% of the employees who took the offer were in the WordPress part of the company. Automattic is at this point a bunch of loosely related companies, it’s understandable that the Pocket Casts team for example are probably quite disconnected from WordPress and the drama. In other words, for those actually affected by the drama, a much higher percentage left.

paulgb 2y ago
Right, but I think coalface’s point is that it’s a good deal regardless of the drama. I’ve never really hated a job in my career, but if at any point I had a chance to take a paid break and then get paid two salaries for a bit, I’d probably have taken it more times than not.

photomatt 2y ago

We have a special stock program called A12, and one cool feature of it is that you can still sell stock after you've left, with windows every six months. (You can only buy if you're currently employed, and it's downside protected, so you effectively have a 1x liquidation preference just like sophisticated investors.

xbmcuser 2y ago

Unless you have another job lined up the job market currently is not where everyone would just quit in my opinion.

jlarocco 2y ago

With the current job market, I'm surprised so many took it. Some people in my Linkedin network have been searching for tech and developer jobs for over 6 months. If it were me I would have stayed while I kept looking. It's always better to search for a job when you already have one, and you really don't know when/if the right thing will come along. On the other hand, it's a great mini-runway for people who want to start their own company.

zem 2y ago

I was effectively forced to take a similar "offer" recently (iow laid off with six months severance), and while I did end up getting another job relatively soon it was an extremely stressful time. I do not think I would have taken it voluntarily in the current economy, even if it did happen to benefit me in the end.