6 ms·

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disas

by _djo_ 2y ago

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue teams to ask random volunteers to stand down and stop trying to "self-deploy" and help on their own. First, it's inherently a more dangerous airspace than usual, given the huge numbers of aircraft flying around, lots of low level flying, and degraded communications and other networks. Second, just keeping coordination between all the different units, groups, volunteers, and aircraft in a mass disaster like this is a huge undertaking. There are dozens of aircraft, hundreds of distinct organisations down to local fire departments and volunteer groups, and thousands of people all of whom have to stay reasonably organised to ensure everyone who needs to be rescued is. Which is why as far as possible it's best to use only the volunteers who have not only trained in the relevant communication and coordination protocols but actually practiced them at least once. If that group is overwhelmed then they look outside and bring on others through established and expedited procedures so that they don't jam up the works. This is one guy and his helicopter, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad. But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. His mistake was only coordinating with some local firefighters, and believing that was enough. But they're not in charge of air operations. He should've approached the relevant air operations cell for South Carolina, or gone via one of the established volunteer organisations for pilots with their own aircraft that have pre-existing relationships with the Air Force and other organisations involved in rescues and disaster response, and are prepared to take in new volunteers and use them effectively.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> common for disaster response and search & rescue teams to ask random volunteers to stand down and stop trying to "self-deploy" and help on their own Agree that the article is inherently (and self consciously) biased, having only one side’s account. But I’m training to be a pilot and I know quite a few people in SAR. The fire chief should have used, if not the pilot, the helicopter.
- _djo_ 2y ago
  Not really possible if you don't have readily available pilots to fly it. The fire chief should have directed him to the organisation coordinating volunteers with their own helicopters, the Carolina Emergency Response Team, but it's possible he didn't know about it.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > if you don't have readily available pilots to fly it Sure. But it’s easier to find a pilot than a helicopter in a disaster. My point is threatening the pilot with arrest and sending him and his chopper away makes no sense.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - _djo_ 2y ago
      As I said elsewhere, I'm willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack given that they're probably exhausted, overwhelmed, and not fully aware of all the parts of the response. That's why it's important to offer your services via the organisations/groups/etc set up for it, rather than finding the nearest local first responders.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        That's why it's important to not have chiefs defaulting to fear of losing control vs fear of losing lives. You can see this in other chaotic situations, such as war. Command and control structures work great until they get overwhelmed by too many events on the ground, at which point they completely gridlock.
      - ekianjo 2y ago
        > m willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack Why don't you consider they may be incompetent as an option?
shakow 2y ago
> He should've approached the relevant air operations cell The one that was not yet deployed?
- _djo_ 2y ago
  It was deployed, it sounds like he just wasn't aware of it. For instance, the Carolina Emergency Response Team was coordinating private helicopter assistance from Hickory airport.
  - shakow 2y ago
    AFAICT from TFA, it looks like this cell could only have been active from Sept. 30th, as it was when the no-flight zone was removed. IIUC, the guy started its stuff the 28th, and the incident happened the 29th.
    - _djo_ 2y ago
      The cell was active before, CERT is assisting it, not replacing it. The article doesn't provide the necessary background information on when it started operations, only when the subject of the article became aware of it.
      - shakow 2y ago
        > The cell was active before Then why was a no-fly zone set up? That sounds pretty counter-productive?
        _djo_ 2y ago
        Not really. The no-fly zone still allows for military flights and any flights authorised by them or whoever else is performing the air traffic coordination.
khafra 2y ago
That's the best steelman of the fire official's position that I've seen, but it still sounds like it was a decent general rule, being overapplied when it was inappropriate for the situation (per the pilot's testimony, there were no other helicopters operating in the area, when he was threatened with arrest if he went back to pick up his son).
- _djo_ 2y ago
  I agree the fire chief's response could've been better, but I'm also willing to cut people at the local response level a bit of slack in being overwhelmed, exhausted, and perhaps not fully aware of all the moving parts above them. That's why it's so important as a volunteer to approach the organisations, units, groups, etc who are set up to accept and onboard volunteer help.
jdenning 2y ago
So if the official who threatened arrest was the "correct" firefighter to coordinate with, why didn't the official incorporate him into the larger operation rather than threaten him? I think the most likely answer is a small town bureaucrat had to prove that he's in charge, and now they're trying to do some damage control.
- _djo_ 2y ago
  Or that he was overwhelmed by local issues and wasn't aware of which one of the many organisations was the one coordinating volunteers with their own helicopters. He may just have known that random people adding themselves into the mix wasn't allowed.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jdenning 2y ago
    So how should the pilot have known who to contact, if even the assistant fire chief wasn't aware of who was in charge of coordinating volunteers? I agree he was probably having a stressful day, but if his default response to stress is to threaten to put a man in a cage, then he should not have authority.
    - _djo_ 2y ago
      He should've approached the South Carolina Emergency Management Division, perhaps: https://www.scemd.org/recover/volunteer-and-donate/ https://www.scemd.org/recover/volunteer-and-donate/ Or contacted one of the organisations listed here: https://www.fema.gov/disaster/4829 https://www.fema.gov/disaster/4829
      - fleabagmange 2y ago
        He was an S.C. Pilot flying into NC, and for what it’s worth the area he was flying supplies into was, to put it in desktop GUI terms CTRL-A and CTRL-SHIFT-DELETE All the people clamoring to defend the lame fire chief against the defend just don’t get it. This a world-class disaster area and if someone is willing to risk their own safety to get supplies to people in imminent threat of perishing themselves… that’s a good thing. Life isn’t a 0-risk game, and definitely not in an insane disaster area.
throwaway346434 2y ago
Oh, nonsense. This local police officer had no idea what they were doing. Otherwise, they would have restricted the airspace on an ongoing basis: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html/chap20_section_2.html https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html... They did it temporarily, and once. At loggerheads with other rescue efforts.
- mulmen 2y ago
  Fire chief, not police officer.
  - trhway 2y ago
    does either have any authority over airspace? There seems to be encroachment of local and state powers on the airspace, like for example states passing the laws de-facto prohibiting any meaningful flying of drones. Drones in emergencies like this could have been very useful. Of course, one could immediately say that adding drones, especially if a large number of them, would complicate things - yet it is the obvious catch-22 - why no advanced control system of flying of large number of drones have so far been developed? - because de-facto no drone flying is allowed.
    - _djo_ 2y ago
      Random individuals flying their drones are a hazard to rescue helicopters and other aircraft.
      - trhway 2y ago
        that is because no drone-incorporating airspace control system exists right now. The question is why such a system is not even in planning stages. >Random individuals flying their drones are a hazard to rescue helicopters and other aircraft. Is it so really? In Ukraine war a lot of de-facto random individuals from both sides are flying a lot of drones without pretty much any coordination and control system and in combat conditions, much tougher than civilian emergency, and mostly in FPV mode without direct LOS, frequently at night, yet no drone-helicopter/aircraft collisions have so far been reported (and everybody watching the aircraft and helicopter losses very closely)
sethammons 2y ago
I don't have it handy. Caught a tiktok last night of a separate helicopter pilot. It is not one guy either. There are several private choppers trying to help. The one I heard, he had rescued a newborn and an older woman on oxygen. Both would otherwise be dead now. He says there are people with makeshift SOS markers and simply not enough public helicopter help. Apparently the rescue effort is focused on clearing 10 to 40 miles of downed trees. It needs to be on getting people airlifted out, flying through canyons, finding stuck survivors. There should be a fleet of army helicopters there three days ago. People are dying. If they don't want people "getting in the way" then they have to be actually doing something. They are simply costing lives due to ego politics. They should be helping coordinate not shut down help.
- _djo_ 2y ago
  There is an organisation, the Carolina Emergency Response Team, that's coordinating private helicopters for the response. That's who he should've approached from the start, and according to the article he's flying for them now. There are plenty of military helicopters, but in several areas the available landing zones aren't large enough, which is why the CERT is coordinating small private helicopters.
  - fleabagmange 2y ago
    You’re saying this well after the fact. This incident occurred in the immediate after math of the storm when these fancy government agencies were still asleep at the wheel. I myself had to ignore all the usual “stay off the road, don’t drive under or over downed trees and power lines” to get relatives out of Asheville. In times of crises, these rules, however well intentioned, are just suggestions. If you understand why the rules are there, how to safely inform them, and need to break them, break them. Sometimes there just isn’t a bull on the other side of Chesterton’s fence no matter how much people might think there is.
qwertox 2y ago
> But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. > His mistake was only coordinating with some local firefighters, and believing that was enough. This was my same thought. Also, if it's only half-coordinated and an accident happens, who pays for the damages or the lost human lives? I know the intentions were exemplary and that they are heroes, but one first has to zoom out a bit.
exar0815 2y ago
Having been part in localized efforts after a similar event, it's nearly always that the national emergency response is late, slowly, bureaucratic and makes things worse. Some Bigwigs talking over people with local knowledge, ignoring advice, wanting to press their processes and rules... Most people, after a couple of days were all aligned 'Leave the money and the equipment, we will do the rest.'
- jquery 2y ago
  All these rules and processes are written in blood. Just because you don’t understand the reasoning behind them doesn’t mean there aren’t very good reasons for them. It’s the same with commercial aviation, with most accidents caused by “cowboy pilots” who think they know better than all the stuffy rules and boring regulations that keep it all safe.
traceroute66 2y ago
> This is one guy and his helicopter, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad. But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. Also don't forget the basic motto of First Responders .... "don't become a statistic by adding yourself to the count". The fact of the matter here also is that law enforcement, first responders, search and rescue etc. etc. do this sort of stuff all day long every day. They have training, they have well established lines of communication, etc. etc. One guy and his helicopter trying to be a hero is, sadly, only likely to cause more problems than fix them. The professionals on the ground would likely rather have random civilians "out of their hair" instead of hanging around "trying to be helpful". If the civilian professionals have trouble keeping up, they have lines of communication up to the military for backup support. I know it sounds harsh. But really, in a first-world country like the US, just leave it to the professionals and the well established protocols.
- Kim_Bruning 2y ago
  So he was a licensed pilot flying in normal/unregulated airspace (initially no flight restrictions in NOTAM) . So his actions to that point were legal (and within the limits of regular established protocols, to use your terminology) . If officials want civilians out of their hair they can declare a temporary flight restriction, which in fact someone did declare 30 minutes after the discussion with the fire official. (And it is strongly implied it was the fire official) That said, some of the people on the ground actually promised to shield him; so there appears to have been a rather strong organizational split wrt attitudes towards pilot assistance. [1] Note that a TFR MAY include coordination contact information. Which this one apparently did: "CTC ASHEVILLE APP WITHIN 20NM ON 125.8" (from the map summary in the September 29 screenshot in the article). The balance of your thesis does seem to come under pressure with the Mon 30 Sept screenshot; which shows the TFR lifted and multiple aircraft (said to be helicopters) working in the area. This is based just on information in this article. You might be basing your opinion on more general information? [1] "...but we can tell you if you come back with the victim, we’ll have you a designated landing spot and we’ll make sure they don’t come over here"
kstenerud 2y ago
“He originally asked me who I was. I gave him the same information, who I was with, my background experience, law enforcement, and firefighting. And his response was, if you have that kind of experience, you should know that you should be coordinating with us. And I said, I’ve been coordinating with everybody as I’ve been here just the day before, speaking with local law enforcement, other rescue personnel,” Seidhom recalled. Seidhom said he tried to de-escalate and asked the official for instructions on how to communicate with the Lake Lure Fire Department while he was flying a rescue mission near the town. Seidhom said the fire official ordered him to leave and not come back. ----------------- This sounds a lot more like ego to me. A rational person would have pointed him to the right people to coordinate with, not keep escalating to the point of threatening him with arrest if he goes to pick up his co-pilot (his son) who was still on the mountainside. And this is ESPECIALLY bad with the Carolina Emergency Response Team so DESPERATE for civvie copters (because the military ones are too heavy).
- _djo_ 2y ago
  Which is why he should've reached out to the Carolina Emergency Response Team or a related organisation first, rather than the possibly-overwhelmed local first responders who have no role in coordinating the air response.
  - ChoHag 2y ago
    [dead]
  - kstenerud 2y ago
    Which is what a professional such as a fire chief should have calmly told him to do (it takes all of 30 seconds), rather than ordering him to abandon his son and leave, and then threatening to arrest him (even the cops there were scratching their heads at this).
KingOfCoders 2y ago
Love how the article always says "out-of-state chief"

by _djo_ 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> common for disaster response and search & rescue teams to ask random volunteers to stand down and stop trying to "self-deploy" and help on their own Agree that the article is inherently (and self consciously) biased, having only one side’s account. But I’m training to be a pilot and I know quite a few people in SAR. The fire chief should have used, if not the pilot, the helicopter.

_djo_ 2y ago
Not really possible if you don't have readily available pilots to fly it. The fire chief should have directed him to the organisation coordinating volunteers with their own helicopters, the Carolina Emergency Response Team, but it's possible he didn't know about it.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > if you don't have readily available pilots to fly it Sure. But it’s easier to find a pilot than a helicopter in a disaster. My point is threatening the pilot with arrest and sending him and his chopper away makes no sense.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - _djo_ 2y ago
    As I said elsewhere, I'm willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack given that they're probably exhausted, overwhelmed, and not fully aware of all the parts of the response. That's why it's important to offer your services via the organisations/groups/etc set up for it, rather than finding the nearest local first responders.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      That's why it's important to not have chiefs defaulting to fear of losing control vs fear of losing lives. You can see this in other chaotic situations, such as war. Command and control structures work great until they get overwhelmed by too many events on the ground, at which point they completely gridlock.
    - ekianjo 2y ago
      > m willing to cut those responders at the local level a bit of slack Why don't you consider they may be incompetent as an option?

shakow 2y ago

> He should've approached the relevant air operations cell The one that was not yet deployed?

_djo_ 2y ago
It was deployed, it sounds like he just wasn't aware of it. For instance, the Carolina Emergency Response Team was coordinating private helicopter assistance from Hickory airport.
- shakow 2y ago
  AFAICT from TFA, it looks like this cell could only have been active from Sept. 30th, as it was when the no-flight zone was removed. IIUC, the guy started its stuff the 28th, and the incident happened the 29th.
  - _djo_ 2y ago
    The cell was active before, CERT is assisting it, not replacing it. The article doesn't provide the necessary background information on when it started operations, only when the subject of the article became aware of it.
    - shakow 2y ago
      > The cell was active before Then why was a no-fly zone set up? That sounds pretty counter-productive?
      - _djo_ 2y ago
        Not really. The no-fly zone still allows for military flights and any flights authorised by them or whoever else is performing the air traffic coordination.

khafra 2y ago

That's the best steelman of the fire official's position that I've seen, but it still sounds like it was a decent general rule, being overapplied when it was inappropriate for the situation (per the pilot's testimony, there were no other helicopters operating in the area, when he was threatened with arrest if he went back to pick up his son).

_djo_ 2y ago
I agree the fire chief's response could've been better, but I'm also willing to cut people at the local response level a bit of slack in being overwhelmed, exhausted, and perhaps not fully aware of all the moving parts above them. That's why it's so important as a volunteer to approach the organisations, units, groups, etc who are set up to accept and onboard volunteer help.

jdenning 2y ago

So if the official who threatened arrest was the "correct" firefighter to coordinate with, why didn't the official incorporate him into the larger operation rather than threaten him? I think the most likely answer is a small town bureaucrat had to prove that he's in charge, and now they're trying to do some damage control.

_djo_ 2y ago
Or that he was overwhelmed by local issues and wasn't aware of which one of the many organisations was the one coordinating volunteers with their own helicopters. He may just have known that random people adding themselves into the mix wasn't allowed.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jdenning 2y ago
  So how should the pilot have known who to contact, if even the assistant fire chief wasn't aware of who was in charge of coordinating volunteers? I agree he was probably having a stressful day, but if his default response to stress is to threaten to put a man in a cage, then he should not have authority.
  - _djo_ 2y ago
    He should've approached the South Carolina Emergency Management Division, perhaps: https://www.scemd.org/recover/volunteer-and-donate/ https://www.scemd.org/recover/volunteer-and-donate/ Or contacted one of the organisations listed here: https://www.fema.gov/disaster/4829 https://www.fema.gov/disaster/4829
    - fleabagmange 2y ago
      He was an S.C. Pilot flying into NC, and for what it’s worth the area he was flying supplies into was, to put it in desktop GUI terms CTRL-A and CTRL-SHIFT-DELETE All the people clamoring to defend the lame fire chief against the defend just don’t get it. This a world-class disaster area and if someone is willing to risk their own safety to get supplies to people in imminent threat of perishing themselves… that’s a good thing. Life isn’t a 0-risk game, and definitely not in an insane disaster area.

throwaway346434 2y ago

Oh, nonsense. This local police officer had no idea what they were doing. Otherwise, they would have restricted the airspace on an ongoing basis: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html/chap20_section_2.html https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html... They did it temporarily, and once. At loggerheads with other rescue efforts.

mulmen 2y ago
Fire chief, not police officer.
- trhway 2y ago
  does either have any authority over airspace? There seems to be encroachment of local and state powers on the airspace, like for example states passing the laws de-facto prohibiting any meaningful flying of drones. Drones in emergencies like this could have been very useful. Of course, one could immediately say that adding drones, especially if a large number of them, would complicate things - yet it is the obvious catch-22 - why no advanced control system of flying of large number of drones have so far been developed? - because de-facto no drone flying is allowed.
  - _djo_ 2y ago
    Random individuals flying their drones are a hazard to rescue helicopters and other aircraft.
    - trhway 2y ago
      that is because no drone-incorporating airspace control system exists right now. The question is why such a system is not even in planning stages. >Random individuals flying their drones are a hazard to rescue helicopters and other aircraft. Is it so really? In Ukraine war a lot of de-facto random individuals from both sides are flying a lot of drones without pretty much any coordination and control system and in combat conditions, much tougher than civilian emergency, and mostly in FPV mode without direct LOS, frequently at night, yet no drone-helicopter/aircraft collisions have so far been reported (and everybody watching the aircraft and helicopter losses very closely)

sethammons 2y ago

I don't have it handy. Caught a tiktok last night of a separate helicopter pilot. It is not one guy either. There are several private choppers trying to help. The one I heard, he had rescued a newborn and an older woman on oxygen. Both would otherwise be dead now. He says there are people with makeshift SOS markers and simply not enough public helicopter help. Apparently the rescue effort is focused on clearing 10 to 40 miles of downed trees. It needs to be on getting people airlifted out, flying through canyons, finding stuck survivors. There should be a fleet of army helicopters there three days ago. People are dying. If they don't want people "getting in the way" then they have to be actually doing something. They are simply costing lives due to ego politics. They should be helping coordinate not shut down help.

_djo_ 2y ago
There is an organisation, the Carolina Emergency Response Team, that's coordinating private helicopters for the response. That's who he should've approached from the start, and according to the article he's flying for them now. There are plenty of military helicopters, but in several areas the available landing zones aren't large enough, which is why the CERT is coordinating small private helicopters.
- fleabagmange 2y ago
  You’re saying this well after the fact. This incident occurred in the immediate after math of the storm when these fancy government agencies were still asleep at the wheel. I myself had to ignore all the usual “stay off the road, don’t drive under or over downed trees and power lines” to get relatives out of Asheville. In times of crises, these rules, however well intentioned, are just suggestions. If you understand why the rules are there, how to safely inform them, and need to break them, break them. Sometimes there just isn’t a bull on the other side of Chesterton’s fence no matter how much people might think there is.

qwertox 2y ago

> But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. > His mistake was only coordinating with some local firefighters, and believing that was enough. This was my same thought. Also, if it's only half-coordinated and an accident happens, who pays for the damages or the lost human lives? I know the intentions were exemplary and that they are heroes, but one first has to zoom out a bit.

exar0815 2y ago

Having been part in localized efforts after a similar event, it's nearly always that the national emergency response is late, slowly, bureaucratic and makes things worse. Some Bigwigs talking over people with local knowledge, ignoring advice, wanting to press their processes and rules... Most people, after a couple of days were all aligned 'Leave the money and the equipment, we will do the rest.'

jquery 2y ago
All these rules and processes are written in blood. Just because you don’t understand the reasoning behind them doesn’t mean there aren’t very good reasons for them. It’s the same with commercial aviation, with most accidents caused by “cowboy pilots” who think they know better than all the stuffy rules and boring regulations that keep it all safe.

traceroute66 2y ago

> This is one guy and his helicopter, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad. But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. Also don't forget the basic motto of First Responders .... "don't become a statistic by adding yourself to the count". The fact of the matter here also is that law enforcement, first responders, search and rescue etc. etc. do this sort of stuff all day long every day. They have training, they have well established lines of communication, etc. etc. One guy and his helicopter trying to be a hero is, sadly, only likely to cause more problems than fix them. The professionals on the ground would likely rather have random civilians "out of their hair" instead of hanging around "trying to be helpful". If the civilian professionals have trouble keeping up, they have lines of communication up to the military for backup support. I know it sounds harsh. But really, in a first-world country like the US, just leave it to the professionals and the well established protocols.

Kim_Bruning 2y ago
So he was a licensed pilot flying in normal/unregulated airspace (initially no flight restrictions in NOTAM) . So his actions to that point were legal (and within the limits of regular established protocols, to use your terminology) . If officials want civilians out of their hair they can declare a temporary flight restriction, which in fact someone did declare 30 minutes after the discussion with the fire official. (And it is strongly implied it was the fire official) That said, some of the people on the ground actually promised to shield him; so there appears to have been a rather strong organizational split wrt attitudes towards pilot assistance. [1] Note that a TFR MAY include coordination contact information. Which this one apparently did: "CTC ASHEVILLE APP WITHIN 20NM ON 125.8" (from the map summary in the September 29 screenshot in the article). The balance of your thesis does seem to come under pressure with the Mon 30 Sept screenshot; which shows the TFR lifted and multiple aircraft (said to be helicopters) working in the area. This is based just on information in this article. You might be basing your opinion on more general information? [1] "...but we can tell you if you come back with the victim, we’ll have you a designated landing spot and we’ll make sure they don’t come over here"

kstenerud 2y ago

“He originally asked me who I was. I gave him the same information, who I was with, my background experience, law enforcement, and firefighting. And his response was, if you have that kind of experience, you should know that you should be coordinating with us. And I said, I’ve been coordinating with everybody as I’ve been here just the day before, speaking with local law enforcement, other rescue personnel,” Seidhom recalled. Seidhom said he tried to de-escalate and asked the official for instructions on how to communicate with the Lake Lure Fire Department while he was flying a rescue mission near the town. Seidhom said the fire official ordered him to leave and not come back. ----------------- This sounds a lot more like ego to me. A rational person would have pointed him to the right people to coordinate with, not keep escalating to the point of threatening him with arrest if he goes to pick up his co-pilot (his son) who was still on the mountainside. And this is ESPECIALLY bad with the Carolina Emergency Response Team so DESPERATE for civvie copters (because the military ones are too heavy).

_djo_ 2y ago
Which is why he should've reached out to the Carolina Emergency Response Team or a related organisation first, rather than the possibly-overwhelmed local first responders who have no role in coordinating the air response.
- ChoHag 2y ago
  [dead]
- kstenerud 2y ago
  Which is what a professional such as a fire chief should have calmly told him to do (it takes all of 30 seconds), rather than ordering him to abandon his son and leave, and then threatening to arrest him (even the cops there were scratching their heads at this).

KingOfCoders 2y ago

Love how the article always says "out-of-state chief"