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Looking forward to being able to file my non-resident return. Here in NZ about 40 years ago we greatly simplified our tax system, most people don't have to fil

Looking forward to being able to file my non-resident return. Here in NZ about 40 years ago we greatly simplified our tax system, most people don't have to file a return, if you have a single job chances are your employer will pay exactly the right amount of tax - if they got it wrong our IRD will either ask you for some more or send you a refund (with interest). If you want you can file online, it's a ~3 page web form (all your employer data, like W2s, are available on line). No one sells tax programs in NZ.

rnweiher 2y ago
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PopAlongKid 2y ago
>Here in NZ about 40 years ago we greatly simplified our tax system Here in the U.S. over the same period we greatly complicated our tax system. Special interests, tax breaks for the wealthy, welfare payments issued as refundable credits, etc.
mulmen 2y ago
New Zealand has a population of 5.2 million people with a GDP of $247 billion. The United States has a population of 340 million people and a GDP of $27,940 billion ($27.94 trillion). New Zealand would be the 24th largest US state by population and the 30th by GDP. New Zealand has a smaller population than New York City. New Zealand’s economy is smaller than Denver, Colorado’s and would be the 19th largest city by GDP in the US. It’s just not even remotely close to the same scale of problem. The United States has the largest economy in the world. It’s larger than the next three (China, Germany, Japan) economies combined. I’m glad New Zealand was able to achieve their goal but I don’t see what it has to do with the US.
- grecy 2y ago
  It is something to aspire to, something to aim for. Once you know it has been done, then you know it’s possible. The US has vastly more resources to draw on than NZ, and benefits from economies of scale. The goal is constant improvement, not just making excuses for why the status quo has so many things broken or done very badly. Aim higher.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    > It is something to aspire to, something to aim for. Why should we aspire to this? Why is NZs solution better? > The goal is constant improvement, not just making excuses for why the status quo has so many things broken or done very badly. I’m not making excuses for the US tax code. I’m explaining that the situations are completely different. > Aim higher. Yes, we are. That’s literally the topic of the submission.
    - dangitman 2y ago
      [dead]
    - sofixa 2y ago
      > Why should we aspire to this? Why is NZs solution better Because New Zealanders, as well as almost everyone else in a developed country, spend much less time and money on a chore that can be optimised to be easy and free? Not to mention the pure PR side of things - people don't like doing their taxes. The easier it is for them, the less they'll hate it.
      - mulmen 2y ago
        Yes, tax filing should be simplified. But it’s not clear to me that simplifying the tax code itself is a good idea.
        grecy 2y ago
        I didn’t say anything about simplifying the tax code, I said NZ ease of filing is something to aspire to.
        mulmen 2y ago
        NZ ease of filing is because they simplified the tax code.
        2y ago
- 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
  i would counter that. India has 4 times bigger population that the US and it has both direct and indirect taxes that "can" only be filed for free by anyone on government portals only. there is a small cottage industry of software that cater to tax professionals to help them prepare returns data (like turbotax) and can track hundreds of clients' data in a single place but that is absolutely not needed. the softwares are supposed to help prepare data but eventually all happens on government portals only. this means when govt portals are down, it is down for everyone. citizens CAN and DO file their own tax returns, both direct and indirect taxes but if they go to a professional for help, they usually use a software because it is easier, avoids repetitive work, helps in reducing errors and stuff. even then, these softwares charge a pittance. something like $100/year for unlimited clients, unlimited everything because you, the professional installs it on their machine and stuff. india has, in the past 7 years updated their government taxes websites and that has cost them actual billions of dollars but that has had clear benefits going forward
- allendoerfer 2y ago
  New Zealand is also 4 places ahead of the US in terms of human development[0]. It would not make sense for the US to look at a country this much more developed. It should rather compare itself to its peers, e.g. Slovenia. /s [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Making decisions is easier in a small country, but beyond that, most things are easier in a large country. You benefit from economies of scale, you have access to things that are not yet generally available, and the people responsible for implementing the decisions are more competent on the average.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    It’s unclear to me how any of that simplifies federal income tax reporting. The US tax code is an important tool in steering the economy. It’s complex and always will be. I’m not defending Turbotax here and I’m glad the IRS is building this system but I don’t see how the comparison to NZ is useful or even relevant.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
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- maccard 2y ago
  The UK is 4 countries with a government plus two devolved governments which have their own nuances and quirks. There's 67m people and a GDP of $2.7T USD. The vast, vast majority of people in the UK get a ltter once. ayear saying "this is how much tax you paid last year" and that's it. For the vast majority of people who _do_ have to engage, they file a self assessment which is a government form that is pre-populated with all the information they have already. Banks and financial institutions are required to give you annual statements which make filling in any missing details quite easy, but for most people it's 30 minutes of clicking and triple checking numbers. There's no excuse for the state of the US system other than incompetence and greed.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    Yes the tax filing system is overly complex in the US, and the IRS is rightly improving that. But the tax code itself is always going to be complicated.
    - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
      indian taxation is archiac, modern, lengthy and most fucked up and yet there are only policy decisions that are problematic. the same can be fixed the next day. other than that, it works fairly well
    - maccard 2y ago
      One of the reasons the tax code is complicated is because everyone fills in a tax return. One of the reasons everyone fills in a tax return is because the tax code is complicated.
- Taniwha 2y ago
  I lived in the US for half my adult life, I'm very aware how complex the US tax system is - doesn't mean you can't bite the bullet and change it - we used to have a complex one too. It was very simple - no exemptions, not for anyone. The only real difference is that you have states and as a result have 2 levels of taxation
  - mulmen 2y ago
    It’s not clear to me that a simple tax code is better. I’m in favor of simplifying filing.

rnweiher 2y ago

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PopAlongKid 2y ago

>Here in NZ about 40 years ago we greatly simplified our tax system Here in the U.S. over the same period we greatly complicated our tax system. Special interests, tax breaks for the wealthy, welfare payments issued as refundable credits, etc.

mulmen 2y ago

New Zealand has a population of 5.2 million people with a GDP of $247 billion. The United States has a population of 340 million people and a GDP of $27,940 billion ($27.94 trillion). New Zealand would be the 24th largest US state by population and the 30th by GDP. New Zealand has a smaller population than New York City. New Zealand’s economy is smaller than Denver, Colorado’s and would be the 19th largest city by GDP in the US. It’s just not even remotely close to the same scale of problem. The United States has the largest economy in the world. It’s larger than the next three (China, Germany, Japan) economies combined. I’m glad New Zealand was able to achieve their goal but I don’t see what it has to do with the US.

grecy 2y ago
It is something to aspire to, something to aim for. Once you know it has been done, then you know it’s possible. The US has vastly more resources to draw on than NZ, and benefits from economies of scale. The goal is constant improvement, not just making excuses for why the status quo has so many things broken or done very badly. Aim higher.
- mulmen 2y ago
  > It is something to aspire to, something to aim for. Why should we aspire to this? Why is NZs solution better? > The goal is constant improvement, not just making excuses for why the status quo has so many things broken or done very badly. I’m not making excuses for the US tax code. I’m explaining that the situations are completely different. > Aim higher. Yes, we are. That’s literally the topic of the submission.
  - dangitman 2y ago
    [dead]
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > Why should we aspire to this? Why is NZs solution better Because New Zealanders, as well as almost everyone else in a developed country, spend much less time and money on a chore that can be optimised to be easy and free? Not to mention the pure PR side of things - people don't like doing their taxes. The easier it is for them, the less they'll hate it.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      Yes, tax filing should be simplified. But it’s not clear to me that simplifying the tax code itself is a good idea.
      - grecy 2y ago
        I didn’t say anything about simplifying the tax code, I said NZ ease of filing is something to aspire to.
        mulmen 2y ago
        NZ ease of filing is because they simplified the tax code.
        2y ago
2Gkashmiri 2y ago
i would counter that. India has 4 times bigger population that the US and it has both direct and indirect taxes that "can" only be filed for free by anyone on government portals only. there is a small cottage industry of software that cater to tax professionals to help them prepare returns data (like turbotax) and can track hundreds of clients' data in a single place but that is absolutely not needed. the softwares are supposed to help prepare data but eventually all happens on government portals only. this means when govt portals are down, it is down for everyone. citizens CAN and DO file their own tax returns, both direct and indirect taxes but if they go to a professional for help, they usually use a software because it is easier, avoids repetitive work, helps in reducing errors and stuff. even then, these softwares charge a pittance. something like $100/year for unlimited clients, unlimited everything because you, the professional installs it on their machine and stuff. india has, in the past 7 years updated their government taxes websites and that has cost them actual billions of dollars but that has had clear benefits going forward
allendoerfer 2y ago
New Zealand is also 4 places ahead of the US in terms of human development[0]. It would not make sense for the US to look at a country this much more developed. It should rather compare itself to its peers, e.g. Slovenia. /s [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jltsiren 2y ago
Making decisions is easier in a small country, but beyond that, most things are easier in a large country. You benefit from economies of scale, you have access to things that are not yet generally available, and the people responsible for implementing the decisions are more competent on the average.
- mulmen 2y ago
  It’s unclear to me how any of that simplifies federal income tax reporting. The US tax code is an important tool in steering the economy. It’s complex and always will be. I’m not defending Turbotax here and I’m glad the IRS is building this system but I don’t see how the comparison to NZ is useful or even relevant.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
maccard 2y ago
The UK is 4 countries with a government plus two devolved governments which have their own nuances and quirks. There's 67m people and a GDP of $2.7T USD. The vast, vast majority of people in the UK get a ltter once. ayear saying "this is how much tax you paid last year" and that's it. For the vast majority of people who _do_ have to engage, they file a self assessment which is a government form that is pre-populated with all the information they have already. Banks and financial institutions are required to give you annual statements which make filling in any missing details quite easy, but for most people it's 30 minutes of clicking and triple checking numbers. There's no excuse for the state of the US system other than incompetence and greed.
- mulmen 2y ago
  Yes the tax filing system is overly complex in the US, and the IRS is rightly improving that. But the tax code itself is always going to be complicated.
  - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
    indian taxation is archiac, modern, lengthy and most fucked up and yet there are only policy decisions that are problematic. the same can be fixed the next day. other than that, it works fairly well
  - maccard 2y ago
    One of the reasons the tax code is complicated is because everyone fills in a tax return. One of the reasons everyone fills in a tax return is because the tax code is complicated.
Taniwha 2y ago
I lived in the US for half my adult life, I'm very aware how complex the US tax system is - doesn't mean you can't bite the bullet and change it - we used to have a complex one too. It was very simple - no exemptions, not for anyone. The only real difference is that you have states and as a result have 2 levels of taxation
- mulmen 2y ago
  It’s not clear to me that a simple tax code is better. I’m in favor of simplifying filing.