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RIM announces $518 million loss, 5,000 job cuts, delays BB10 to 2013

262 points by dataminer 14y ago

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
hkmurakami 14y ago
"Excluding some items, the first-quarter loss was 37 cents a share, missing the 7-cent loss predicted by analysts, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Sales fell 43 percent to $2.8 billion, trailing an estimate of $3.05 billion"[1] Shockingly bad numbers, for a company that was expected to produce bad numbers. Exceeding expectations, but not in the direction you'd want :( [1]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-28/rim-reports-loss-as-it-cuts-jobs-delays-blackberry-10-release.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-28/rim-reports-loss-as... edit: more numbers from same article: "RIM said it shipped 7.8 million BlackBerrys and 260,000 PlayBook tablets in its last fiscal quarter, which ended June 2. Analysts had projected 8.8 million smartphones and 280,000 tablets, according to a survey of 10 analysts. A year earlier, RIM shipped 13.2 million BlackBerrys and 500,000 PlayBooks."
- josh2600 14y ago
  I think the big part for me was BB10 being delayed. BB10 is QNX, which RIM acquired 2 years ago. They were ready to ship QNX when they were bought, so the 2 year delay is just evidence of RIM's inability to ship on time. Sad to see what was such a giant misstep so badly and so consistently. :(
  - recoiledsnake 14y ago
    >They were ready to ship QNX when they were bought What does that mean? QNX is an RTOS meant for embedded devices. They were already shipping and still shipping QNX for medical devices etc.
  - isthatso 14y ago
    > They were ready to ship QNX when they were bought I've no idea where you're getting that but when they QNX was not ready to ship anything on mobile back then. They've been building the whole ecosystem around the core QNX system.
    - tmzt 14y ago
      I wonder if they shouldn't shift gears and become the dashboard computer before somebody else does, QNX is still developing automotive solutions and some look a lot like the BB10 demos we've seen. Deep integration with mobile devices (including iOS and Android), direct PIN messaging to a dashboard computer, providing a flawless mobile broadband solution in partnership with carriers, etc. Can RIM even keep these two mobile device product lines alive long enough, or should they move in while Microsoft hasn't got the UI right (voice maybe but not onscreen) and Google is just getting into it. Ironically, Nokia would be the perfect maps partner.
  - bnr 14y ago
    They shipped QNX on the PlayBook in early 2011, with a Flash-based UI. For BB10 they are moving to a whole new app framework (Cascades).
aginn 14y ago
How quickly giants fall. I see an M&A in their future.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  I see patent troll. Sadly, it's the last gasp of fallen tech firms.
  - diminish 14y ago
    I hope a patent chest-burster alien does not come out of rimm, mobile world will lose years with those legal suits.
goatforce5 14y ago
https://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:RIMM https://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:RIMM Down 18.07% in afterhours trading as of the time of this comment.
- Zenst 14y ago
  OUCH that's with the price they have making the company so ripe to be brought and broken up appealing that I doubt that it wont happen now :(.
timkeller 14y ago
There is now little chance of a comeback.
- chamanbuga 14y ago
  Honestly, none
  - Retric 14y ago
    People said the same thing about Apple and look where they are. However, I think without changing the top 2-3 layers of management they are doomed.
    - mlreed328 14y ago
      RIM is most certainly no Apple.
      - sha90 14y ago
        You could have said the same thing about Apple in the 90s.
        Nelson69 14y ago
        There were some dark times during the 1990s for Apple. They fundamentally had a technology stack though. They had vast amounts of technology that made them look like an incredibly valuable target for purchase. There also had an army of loyal supporters. Supporters longing for their return to greatness. That and they had, in ways, carved out a safe harbor, they didn't have to compete head to head with MS or the clone makers. We're talking about a rare turn around though, that doesn't happen often. Comparing companies to Apple is going to be the new Godwin's law.. RIM is just in a different spot, the game changed and they didn't. They had some good stuff but the rules are just so different, if they made a product that was on par with Android of iPhone, that's simply not enough.
    - raganwald 14y ago
Zenst 14y ago
Delaying BB10 until next year, even though it is to get it working well is another delay too far sadly. How many more staff can they get rid off? Nortel part two sadly for RIM. Sad, but realy have to make some epic bad managment mistakes for this level of fail and there making them :(. So sad, but I hear the fat lady is warmed up already.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  > How many more staff can they get rid off? I'd really suggest starting with upper management this time. edit: it crushes my soul to know they'll eventually leave what's left of the company they ruined with more money in their pockets than many of their best employees will earn in a lifetime.
- izend 14y ago
  I'm Canadian and I honestly believe this is a display of the terrible management that exists in Canada, especially in the tech sector. Examples: Nortel, Corel
  - ontoillogical 14y ago
    Can you give some more examples?
    - wmil 14y ago
      There's a book on the subject, "Why Mexicans Don't Drink Molson" http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Mexicans-Dont-Drink-Molson/dp/1553654064 http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Mexicans-Dont-Drink-Molson/dp/15536... Essentially the Canadian business elite always wanted to set up protected markets where they could collect easy rent instead of competing on the world stage.
      - huggyface 14y ago
        Which has nothing to do with either Nortel or RIM. That works at many levels of the market, but is irrelevant here.
curiousfiddler 14y ago
Unless they work out a miracle in 2013, RIM's best bet is to get acquired. And actually they could be a good option for Oracle considering they plan to explore new enterprise avenues.
- taligent 14y ago
  Actually this is a really interesting suggestion. Oracle definitely has the money, patience and will to go against Android and iOS in the enterprise space. And BB does have a Java story which suits Oracle. The question is whether Oracle needs to get into the mobile space. They could just as easily sell apps for iOS/Android or add better mobile front ends to their eBusiness Suite.
  - curiousfiddler 14y ago
    Was actually discussing with someone I know in Oracle - they are exploring more mobile visibility aggressively. And I guess it wouldn't hurt if they own a popular enterprise mobile platform.
    - pinaceae 14y ago
      "enterprise" no longer exists. that's what is killing RIM, that's why they are trying to woo consumers. Users rule now, and users are consumers. They don't want to carry two devices, one for home, one for work. The home one being technically advanced. The cost of the IT fortresses is prohibitive and it is now being understood that IT departments with overzealous IT security policies ruined the actual use cases of technology. Example: Top15 big pharma co. BB as the corporate standard, fully locked down. PIN lock activates the sec the screen goes dark. PIN is a alphanumeric password. Camera, Browser - pretty much everything is disabled. Windows Notebooks? VPNs, rotating passwords, dongles, e-mail mailboxes of 500mb, no e-mail retention, etc. IT argues that this makes them "compliant". Then, suddenly, strangely coincidental with the rise of Apple post 2007 a big shift starts. SaaS solutions are starting to replace on-premise stuff, Big pharco has realized that their IT really sucks in terms of its job. The headcount, cost overhead is in no relation to the pain it causes. Everything is no, everything takes ages, when it arrives it is unusable. And now we are at bring your own device. Whatever works. iPads everywhere. iOS takes care of security and OS updates. No more we can't update to WinXP SP3 because we're still testing it. Just had a meeting with another big pharco yesterday, where BB is corporate standard. They are dropping that next month. iPhones are taking over. With far less control. "Enterprise" for end-users is dead.
adventureful 14y ago
After hours price pegs their market cap at a mere $3.8 billion. Their all time high was $148.13 / share, on June 19th 2008, so almost exactly four years ago they were worth roughly $76 billion (95% destruction of value). That averages out to losing nearly $50 million in market value every day for the last four years.
- batgaijin 14y ago
  Wow those are insane figures. I'm wondering, why didn't they try more crazy stuff? With the amount of capital they had, I'm just so surprised that they didn't release some super advanced crap that was impractical. Anyone know? Nothing jumped of the wikipedia page for me. All I remember is their usage of QNX, but they did a terrible job with growing the community.
  - adventureful 14y ago
    Probably for roughly the same reason Nokia's old chief was putting down Apple on the cover story of Forbes when it came to who was going to dominate smart phones (November 2007 sounds right?). Like a deer in headlights that has never encountered a car before, and whose instincts were completely unprepared for it.
  - glhaynes 14y ago
    Is there any evidence that they ever had any "super advanced crap"? They happened to hit the combo of a nice keyboard back when you needed a keyboard and a separate server-side component that integrated with Exchange back when you needed a separate server-side component that integrated with Exchange.
    - erikj54 14y ago
      Actually RIM pushed radio and mobile forward. Intel had to innovate on projects just to support RIM's early phones. Not to mention their work in networks with Telco's. They used to make phones that lasted for weeks always on....but I digress.
  - 14y ago
taligent 14y ago
I don't understand why they are persisting with this BB10 strategy. Blackberry's value is not in the core operating system. It is in the business apps, BB messenger, unique keyboard, enterprise features etc. It seems like they would be much better off adopting Android as their base and building proprietary features on top. It just seems like they are spending all their time just to create a product that can barely compete with the 1st iPhone let alone the 5th.
- adventureful 14y ago
  I think you nailed it. Their market was / is enterprise, which is a place where they certainly could have competed. I wouldn't want to be in the consumer space squeezed between Android and the iPhone, but RIM had a helluva position in enterprise. I do wonder though, if this isn't simply an inevitable case of software eating unnecessary hardware options. That is, whether RIM's only good option was to become a software-only company that builds enterprise software on top of Android and iOS. It would mean the mass contraction of their scale that way as well.
  - praxulus 14y ago
    They don't have to be software-only, the large majority of Android phones aren't made by, or in partnership with, Google. In fact, their hardware division might be the least affected by switching to android. Their core OS people would be the ones taking the biggest hit in terms of job cuts or transfers, and all their apps people would have to start porting over to a new platform.
    - adventureful 14y ago
      The Android hardware business is a horrible business for all but a few of the manufacturers. I don't see what the benefit for them would to compete in the hardware business when they can deliver their software on top of 95% of all smart phones instead.
      - wisty 14y ago
geori 14y ago
Anyone who invested in this company post-iPhone 4 and post-"co-CEO" RIM deserved to lose their money.
- rdl 14y ago
  I invested when they were around $11, thinking the patent, bbm, enterprise management crossplatform, M&A, and residual sales in third world markets would be worth something, and that the market had overreacted. IMO there's a difference between good companies and good stocks in the public market. A cheap price on an ok company can be a good investment; a high price on a good or great company can be a mediocre investment. Kind of the opposite of startups or other illiquid private investments (which largely have a binary outcome). I'm starting to think they'll go out at $8-12 though.
  - runako 14y ago
    >> I'm starting to think they'll go out at $8-12 though. Why? What would justify a premium over the after-hours $7.70? Wouldn't a savvy acquirer just wait another quarter or two to get a better price? What's the rush? At the rate they are destroying value, it would seem more likely that they go out for much less than $8.
    - rdl 14y ago
      Usually there is a premium over last trade, and the patents are potentially useful to trolls, etc. now. The main reason for a sale to happen now vs. waiting a year would be if some kind of competitive bidding happened. The big change is that RIM's (worthless) board and senior management are now open to the idea, unlike the previous several years of decline (where it was obvious to everyone, but RIM wouldn't do anything).
    - goodcanadian 14y ago
      Their book value is more than $19. Even the liquid assets minus all liabilities is $6.60. Are you saying that all of their property, patents, and future revenue (decidedly non-zero) are worth less than $1.10?
dakrisht 14y ago
How are these guys still in business? It's out of this world. It's also out of this world how this company can't figure out left from right - they haven't released a single product since the failure that was the "new" Blackberry Bold 9900 - which was a miserable device that crashed 5x a day. And now they're not releasing anything until 2013. Makes you wonder if they're just buying time in the form of bullshit product roadmaps in the hope of an acquisition. It should not take this long to release a new device, a new OS or whatever the hell they are doing over there. It's a shame, BIS and BBM are two great services, but their OS is just such dated trash.
- mtgx 14y ago
  They lived off inertia from international growth in emergent countries where Android was just getting started and Blackberry was a lot more recognized as a brand. That's how they fooled themselves into thinking that their business and revenues are perfectly fine, and there's nothing threatening them. Complete lack of foresight.
  - wmil 14y ago
    Which is surprising. I mean 2 CEOs should give you twice as much foresight, right?
- grannyg00se 14y ago
  Not really relevant anymore, but I have a 9900 in my hands right now and I think it's the best phone I've ever used. It has never crashed on me. Going on one month always on now. Keyboard is legendary, touch screen is perfect, browser is snappy.
  - Torrents 14y ago
    I've got a Torch 9810 that I use and enjoy. Screen is great and I love the keyboard...does what I need. Though it's lacking in apps it seems to have a few advantages over android phones. For example images attached to text messages on my wife's Galaxy II open as a slideshow or something and are displayed as a thumbnail, and as far as I can tell that is a common Android issue and there is currently no workaround. It's too bad RIM hasn't been able to execute better on upgrades.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
But wait! They're going to license BB10! I just want to know if it's that they just accept that that will make them look desperate, or if they acknowledge the company perception is so bad that any glimmer of hope is a positive thing for them at this point?
zeruch 14y ago
I've not been surprised that they have been on a downward slope, but this just seems to be the financial equivalent to a vertical nose dive. Its the speed and acceleration of the decline that just seems to boggle; between RIM and Nokia, its hard to fathom how either former juggernaut could implode with almost Shakespearean-scale tragedy.
BlackNapoleon 14y ago
Part of me wants to say that blogs killed RIM. They did so much to slander a product that was for all intents and purposes doing well at the time. They made it cool to rag on RIM before ragging on RIM was even a "thing" My old BB Bold was the best phone I ever owned. I'm currently using an iphone, but that keyboard when used right and well can NEVER be beat.
- glhaynes 14y ago
  Turns out: typing isn't the be all end all of a mobile device for the vast majority of people. (And, besides, it's not at all clear that most people type significantly faster on a hardware keyboard anyway.)
- mlreed328 14y ago
  For all of your rhetoric you are admittedly using an iPhone. I think people who thought their BB was the best device ever, yet joined the exodus to iPhone or Android killed RIM. That is- you killed RIM. Not blogs.
mitjak 14y ago
A question to those at BB: if you're being laid off of leaving, where are you planning to head? There is a growing number of start-ups in Toronto and Montreal, and I wonder if they'd suddenly an influx of available workforce.
- canadiancreed 14y ago
  As someone that lives a 1/2 hour or so from the Kitchener-Waterloo area I'm thinking it'll have a hard hitting effect on the K-W market, on par with Nortel's implosion in West Ottawa/Kanata. When I moved here I picked the location to be able to hit as many locations as possible for potential employment. With RIM going south, moving closer to Toronto is sounding like the way to go, to say nothing of the rise in competition there will be for Java/C coders
forgotAgain 14y ago
So now we have two companies (Nokia and RIM) in similar circumstances (the Innovators Dilemma). They each saw two paths forward. Each chose their own path. Neither are succeeding. So were they already doomed by the time they chose to act or did they misunderstand the dilemma they faced? It was both. After years of tech homogeneity, people were looking for a change. Apple came along and it was young and fresh, fun and had awesome technology to boot. The incumbents were slow to act. When they did act they failed to recognize that it was a branding problem as well as a technology shortfall. They are toast.
- gnaffle 14y ago
  I don't think Apple succeeded because people were looking for a change. They just made a smartphone that was usable for regular people (ie iPod users). Nokia could have done that too. Maemo was comparable to (or better than?) Android in 2007. If they had really understood what made the iPhone a success, they could have spent a year repositioning Maemo to be competitive with iOS, just like Google did with Android. Of course, they didn't since they were already heavily invested in Symbian, and that's why they stumbled.
  - forgotAgain 14y ago
    usuable for regular people - that's awesome technology. Maybe Nokia could have made a technically competitive smartphone in 2008 but they didn't. Why not? They thought they were competing on technology and that they had time. They weren't though. They were in the middle of a market changeover and they didn't see it. If they came out with a phone that was technically competitive I don't think people would have bought it. They have one today and it's sales are disappointing.
    - gnaffle 14y ago
      I agree, although think if they had one not long after the iPhone launched, a lot of people would have bought them because of brand loyalty. If you already had a Nokia your default choice was usually a new Nokia. And they had a pretty strong brand at the time (and 70-80% market share?).
adrinavarro 14y ago
RIM needs more coders and less executives. Their products are lacking from basic stuff, just for example: - no IMAP folders means that I can't get two-way sync without getting every single email, no way to avoid 'bypass inbox' mails, it's that or just one way - software, and social integration on the PlayBook is really bad and too 'alpha' (hm, can't even send a DM typing the twitter account name) to be used. And we have unstable software, lacking of the most basic functionality (like… editing bookmarks, storing notes, and with frequent glitches and bugs, disappearing folders…) You cannot get adoption with such a bad experience, and that's why I understand that BB10 is the way to go. Their hardware is excellent, their software is a few years (and thousands of lines of code) behind of where it should be. If you cannot attract developers, hire them and make your own ecosystem. In the end, social networks and usual convenience apps (weather, netflix, browser, twitter, facebook, presentations, sync, calendar, contacts) with a good support is all you need to attract a decent user base. If every time someone tries out my PlayBook they run into a stupid glitch or crash, it's clear that they aren't going to buy one, even if it's cheap and it's a real beauty in terms of hardware and underlying system. And my dad isn't going to get a new BlackBerry either. They're getting more expensive and he still can't have a decent Gmail integration without stupid 'features' like skipping inbox or two-way sync. There is no flexibility, menus are still too complicated and messy. It's no wonder that they're making losses. I guess I'm the only one still sticking to BB out there without hating it or being forced to…
teyc 14y ago
This is so interesting. We now have: 1. Apple - who makes great hardware and great software winning 2. Google - who doesn't make hardware and gives away OK software winning 3. RIM - who makes good hardware and OK software losing 4. MS - who doesn't make hardware and makes OK software losing It goes to show that business model both matters and doesn't matter.
- kjhughes 14y ago
  Or maybe it goes to show that your good/great/ok assessments across hardware/software categories aren't good predictors of winning/losing.
cs702 14y ago
The company appears to have the financial wherewithal to last for quite a while as it attempts a turn-around.[1] So I expect them to continue trying with the existing business model for at least a few more quarters before they give up and join the Android bandwagon or sell their soul to Microsoft like Nokia. [1] The latest financial statements at http://press.rim.com/content/dam/rim/press/PDF/Financial/FY2013/Q1_FY2013_Press_Release.pdf http://press.rim.com/content/dam/rim/press/PDF/Financial/FY2... show that the company ended the quarter with close to $1,467 million in cold hard cash and $780 million in investments, and no debt (page 8). Moreover, all of the reported loss came from non-cash accounting write-offs and accelerated amortization; the company's combined cash and investments actually increased during the quarter, from $2,111 million to $2,247 million (page 9) -- that's right: they ended the quarter with more money than they started!
- copperred 14y ago
  The market is pricing the company with the expectation that the cash will be gone in the future. It sounds like the cash position may start to decrease in the next quarter.
- mleonhard 14y ago
  Their subscriber base also grew from 77 M to 78 M. Their market share dropped, but isn't that because the market grew?
mzuvella 14y ago
Goodnight RIM
raheemm 14y ago
This drama can only be saved if a Steve Jobs character shows up at Waterloo.
JVIDEL 14y ago
You know for a while it was kinda funny, but now I'm really starting to worry about RIM. Is like they are trying to commit company-wide suicide, it still has a big chunk of the market, it's not "done for" RIM still has a chance, but it seems its poised to destroy itself.
oz 14y ago
I, as well as HN user 'HorizonXP' have commented extensively on RIM, so I suppose I need to give a statement. I tried and failed to compose a meaningful comment, so, quite simply: I'm switching to Android later this year. Probably a Galaxy SIII. My current BB is my first smartphone, which I suspect is why I have such a fondness toward it. The fact that Blackberry data plans are dirt cheap and unlimited also didn't hurt. But features are lacking. For example: If I create a playlist, I cannot change the playlist order. So I was looking forward to BB10 to hopefully achieve something resembling feature parity with iOS and Android. I was checking Crackberry.com twice per day just to hear the latest on BB10. I eagerly digested the reheated leaks of the 2 models and the new BBM interface. But I can't wait any longer. Digicel, the dominant carrier in Jamaica, just launched 4G yesterday. Hell, the ad's playing on the radio right now! Prices aren't too shabby (USD17 for a 1GB plan). I can afford it. It makes sense for me to switch, too. My many domains are all hosted on Google Apps. I use Postbox as my email client because of how well it supports Gmail. Might as well complete the last mile. Goodbye, RIM. I'll always remember you. Love, Oz
- HorizonXP 14y ago
  I already have a Galaxy Nexus, and I just bought a Nexus 7 tablet for the NFC capabilities, because I couldn't wait any longer for the PlayBook 4G with NFC. I'll still be developing for BlackBerry 10, and BlackBerry 7 will still be my daily device. But I will be shifting my focus to Android for now, for strategic reasons. RIM dun goofed if they're losing people like me.
  - oz 14y ago
    When even you're pissed, I know it's bad. I thought of getting the Galaxy Nexus due to the stock Android, but my carrier in Jamaica just launched the quad-core S3 for USD 715, so I'm gonna go with that. What's your PIN? Might as well enjoy it while it lasts...
    - HorizonXP 14y ago
      Do not get any Android phone that is not Nexus. You will regret it in the end.
drawkbox 14y ago
I actually thought RIM would go Windows Phone and it made more sense before Nokia. The enterprise fit would have been nicer maybe for them. Not that I am buying any of it, the old days of enterprise pushing consumer sales I think has flipped with Apple. Consumer usage now influences work more maybe.
mutt2012 14y ago
LTE.. fucking LTE is here. RIM, you dun goofed.
sirlancer 14y ago
I think we should really take a moment to thank RIM for what they've done for the market place. If it weren't for them, where would mobile instant messaging be? Think down the road to when most of us will be moving on from Google to the next great "thing" I know when that time comes that I will be forever thankful that I was able to share personal documents with family members overseas using Google Drive. We should be thanking them for being a part of the cycle that is the modern world of technology; a stepping stone and a changing interface for information exchange. Life goes on. And thank god for RIM.
zmmmmm 14y ago
Wow, the level of delusion is just amazing: In a conference call with analysts, Heins said getting the new system right was more important than doing it quickly. “I will not deliver a product to the market that is not ready to meet the needs of our customers,” said Heins. These guys are sitting in the armory of their castle, polishing their weapons, and the barbarians have already stormed over the ramparts, smashed through the walls and set fire to most of the village. But no, it's more important to get those weapons "just right". Or to look at it another way, if BB10 is in such a parlous state that after all these delays it still cannot be shipped then there are huge, enormous problems with the technical competency inside RIM. And if that is true then we can assume that it will never ship in good shape because time is not actually a solution to such problems.
- zmonkeyz 14y ago
  ..and yet if they release too early when it's not ready they have to hear "it just seems like beta software" "it's too unpolished"
stevenwei 14y ago
The biggest problem now is they are trying to play catch up, and are skating to where the puck is at. Jelly Bean just came out, iOS 6 is shipping in the fall. By next year they'll be even further behind. I think there's a very real possibility that they won't manage to ship BB10 at all.
josteink 14y ago
BB10 is just turning into the Duke Nukem OS of our time. It's sad that a company with so much talent can be mismanaged into something as horrible as this, but on the other hand it's hard not to laugh when you read about their continued failures. We are talking about a company which released a tablet with a OS they called complete, which couldn't check email. They are so completely out of touch with what people want, that there is no way they can make. Even if the do get BB10 out the door, it will be a disaster. It will be underwhelming. It will be a monument to what bad management can do with product delivery. I'm with ars technica on this one: RIM is on death watch. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/now-officially-on-our-death-watch-rim/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/now-officially-on-our...
phoenixwizard 14y ago
They have their unique clients !! They have their unique users. They need to figure a way to just strengthen what they are already good at !!
gooddaysir 14y ago
RIM says they're going to launch next year, when the iPhone 5 launches, but I think it's a stalling tactic. They surely don't want BB10 going up against Apple's 5 and still looking inadaquate. Unless someone buys RIM, it's dead man walking, and they know it.
georgespencer 14y ago
In the last four years, RIMM's market cap has fallen by an average of $49m per day. AAPL has risen by $261.7m per day over the same period. I think that about sums it up.
theorique 14y ago
5,000 fewer RIM jobs - this is a bad day for the people of Kitchener-Waterloo and around the world
option_greek 14y ago
Are there any examples that firing people when a company does bad improves its chances of turn around ? It seems like a stupid move by RIM to fire 5k people when their product is already delayed.

262 points by dataminer 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

"Excluding some items, the first-quarter loss was 37 cents a share, missing the 7-cent loss predicted by analysts, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Sales fell 43 percent to $2.8 billion, trailing an estimate of $3.05 billion"[1] Shockingly bad numbers, for a company that was expected to produce bad numbers. Exceeding expectations, but not in the direction you'd want :( [1]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-28/rim-reports-loss-as-it-cuts-jobs-delays-blackberry-10-release.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-28/rim-reports-loss-as... edit: more numbers from same article: "RIM said it shipped 7.8 million BlackBerrys and 260,000 PlayBook tablets in its last fiscal quarter, which ended June 2. Analysts had projected 8.8 million smartphones and 280,000 tablets, according to a survey of 10 analysts. A year earlier, RIM shipped 13.2 million BlackBerrys and 500,000 PlayBooks."

josh2600 14y ago
I think the big part for me was BB10 being delayed. BB10 is QNX, which RIM acquired 2 years ago. They were ready to ship QNX when they were bought, so the 2 year delay is just evidence of RIM's inability to ship on time. Sad to see what was such a giant misstep so badly and so consistently. :(
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  >They were ready to ship QNX when they were bought What does that mean? QNX is an RTOS meant for embedded devices. They were already shipping and still shipping QNX for medical devices etc.
- isthatso 14y ago
  > They were ready to ship QNX when they were bought I've no idea where you're getting that but when they QNX was not ready to ship anything on mobile back then. They've been building the whole ecosystem around the core QNX system.
  - tmzt 14y ago
    I wonder if they shouldn't shift gears and become the dashboard computer before somebody else does, QNX is still developing automotive solutions and some look a lot like the BB10 demos we've seen. Deep integration with mobile devices (including iOS and Android), direct PIN messaging to a dashboard computer, providing a flawless mobile broadband solution in partnership with carriers, etc. Can RIM even keep these two mobile device product lines alive long enough, or should they move in while Microsoft hasn't got the UI right (voice maybe but not onscreen) and Google is just getting into it. Ironically, Nokia would be the perfect maps partner.
- bnr 14y ago
  They shipped QNX on the PlayBook in early 2011, with a Flash-based UI. For BB10 they are moving to a whole new app framework (Cascades).

aginn 14y ago

How quickly giants fall. I see an M&A in their future.

dredmorbius 14y ago
I see patent troll. Sadly, it's the last gasp of fallen tech firms.
- diminish 14y ago
  I hope a patent chest-burster alien does not come out of rimm, mobile world will lose years with those legal suits.

goatforce5 14y ago

https://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:RIMM https://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:RIMM Down 18.07% in afterhours trading as of the time of this comment.

Zenst 14y ago
OUCH that's with the price they have making the company so ripe to be brought and broken up appealing that I doubt that it wont happen now :(.

timkeller 14y ago

There is now little chance of a comeback.

chamanbuga 14y ago
Honestly, none
- Retric 14y ago
  People said the same thing about Apple and look where they are. However, I think without changing the top 2-3 layers of management they are doomed.
  - mlreed328 14y ago
    RIM is most certainly no Apple.
    - sha90 14y ago
      You could have said the same thing about Apple in the 90s.
      - Nelson69 14y ago
        There were some dark times during the 1990s for Apple. They fundamentally had a technology stack though. They had vast amounts of technology that made them look like an incredibly valuable target for purchase. There also had an army of loyal supporters. Supporters longing for their return to greatness. That and they had, in ways, carved out a safe harbor, they didn't have to compete head to head with MS or the clone makers. We're talking about a rare turn around though, that doesn't happen often. Comparing companies to Apple is going to be the new Godwin's law.. RIM is just in a different spot, the game changed and they didn't. They had some good stuff but the rules are just so different, if they made a product that was on par with Android of iPhone, that's simply not enough.
  - raganwald 14y ago

Zenst 14y ago

Delaying BB10 until next year, even though it is to get it working well is another delay too far sadly. How many more staff can they get rid off? Nortel part two sadly for RIM. Sad, but realy have to make some epic bad managment mistakes for this level of fail and there making them :(. So sad, but I hear the fat lady is warmed up already.

rbanffy 14y ago
> How many more staff can they get rid off? I'd really suggest starting with upper management this time. edit: it crushes my soul to know they'll eventually leave what's left of the company they ruined with more money in their pockets than many of their best employees will earn in a lifetime.
izend 14y ago
I'm Canadian and I honestly believe this is a display of the terrible management that exists in Canada, especially in the tech sector. Examples: Nortel, Corel
- ontoillogical 14y ago
  Can you give some more examples?
  - wmil 14y ago
    There's a book on the subject, "Why Mexicans Don't Drink Molson" http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Mexicans-Dont-Drink-Molson/dp/1553654064 http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Mexicans-Dont-Drink-Molson/dp/15536... Essentially the Canadian business elite always wanted to set up protected markets where they could collect easy rent instead of competing on the world stage.
    - huggyface 14y ago
      Which has nothing to do with either Nortel or RIM. That works at many levels of the market, but is irrelevant here.

curiousfiddler 14y ago

Unless they work out a miracle in 2013, RIM's best bet is to get acquired. And actually they could be a good option for Oracle considering they plan to explore new enterprise avenues.

taligent 14y ago
Actually this is a really interesting suggestion. Oracle definitely has the money, patience and will to go against Android and iOS in the enterprise space. And BB does have a Java story which suits Oracle. The question is whether Oracle needs to get into the mobile space. They could just as easily sell apps for iOS/Android or add better mobile front ends to their eBusiness Suite.
- curiousfiddler 14y ago
  Was actually discussing with someone I know in Oracle - they are exploring more mobile visibility aggressively. And I guess it wouldn't hurt if they own a popular enterprise mobile platform.
  - pinaceae 14y ago
    "enterprise" no longer exists. that's what is killing RIM, that's why they are trying to woo consumers. Users rule now, and users are consumers. They don't want to carry two devices, one for home, one for work. The home one being technically advanced. The cost of the IT fortresses is prohibitive and it is now being understood that IT departments with overzealous IT security policies ruined the actual use cases of technology. Example: Top15 big pharma co. BB as the corporate standard, fully locked down. PIN lock activates the sec the screen goes dark. PIN is a alphanumeric password. Camera, Browser - pretty much everything is disabled. Windows Notebooks? VPNs, rotating passwords, dongles, e-mail mailboxes of 500mb, no e-mail retention, etc. IT argues that this makes them "compliant". Then, suddenly, strangely coincidental with the rise of Apple post 2007 a big shift starts. SaaS solutions are starting to replace on-premise stuff, Big pharco has realized that their IT really sucks in terms of its job. The headcount, cost overhead is in no relation to the pain it causes. Everything is no, everything takes ages, when it arrives it is unusable. And now we are at bring your own device. Whatever works. iPads everywhere. iOS takes care of security and OS updates. No more we can't update to WinXP SP3 because we're still testing it. Just had a meeting with another big pharco yesterday, where BB is corporate standard. They are dropping that next month. iPhones are taking over. With far less control. "Enterprise" for end-users is dead.

adventureful 14y ago

After hours price pegs their market cap at a mere $3.8 billion. Their all time high was $148.13 / share, on June 19th 2008, so almost exactly four years ago they were worth roughly $76 billion (95% destruction of value). That averages out to losing nearly $50 million in market value every day for the last four years.

batgaijin 14y ago
Wow those are insane figures. I'm wondering, why didn't they try more crazy stuff? With the amount of capital they had, I'm just so surprised that they didn't release some super advanced crap that was impractical. Anyone know? Nothing jumped of the wikipedia page for me. All I remember is their usage of QNX, but they did a terrible job with growing the community.
- adventureful 14y ago
  Probably for roughly the same reason Nokia's old chief was putting down Apple on the cover story of Forbes when it came to who was going to dominate smart phones (November 2007 sounds right?). Like a deer in headlights that has never encountered a car before, and whose instincts were completely unprepared for it.
- glhaynes 14y ago
  Is there any evidence that they ever had any "super advanced crap"? They happened to hit the combo of a nice keyboard back when you needed a keyboard and a separate server-side component that integrated with Exchange back when you needed a separate server-side component that integrated with Exchange.
  - erikj54 14y ago
    Actually RIM pushed radio and mobile forward. Intel had to innovate on projects just to support RIM's early phones. Not to mention their work in networks with Telco's. They used to make phones that lasted for weeks always on....but I digress.
- 14y ago

taligent 14y ago

I don't understand why they are persisting with this BB10 strategy. Blackberry's value is not in the core operating system. It is in the business apps, BB messenger, unique keyboard, enterprise features etc. It seems like they would be much better off adopting Android as their base and building proprietary features on top. It just seems like they are spending all their time just to create a product that can barely compete with the 1st iPhone let alone the 5th.

adventureful 14y ago
I think you nailed it. Their market was / is enterprise, which is a place where they certainly could have competed. I wouldn't want to be in the consumer space squeezed between Android and the iPhone, but RIM had a helluva position in enterprise. I do wonder though, if this isn't simply an inevitable case of software eating unnecessary hardware options. That is, whether RIM's only good option was to become a software-only company that builds enterprise software on top of Android and iOS. It would mean the mass contraction of their scale that way as well.
- praxulus 14y ago
  They don't have to be software-only, the large majority of Android phones aren't made by, or in partnership with, Google. In fact, their hardware division might be the least affected by switching to android. Their core OS people would be the ones taking the biggest hit in terms of job cuts or transfers, and all their apps people would have to start porting over to a new platform.
  - adventureful 14y ago
    The Android hardware business is a horrible business for all but a few of the manufacturers. I don't see what the benefit for them would to compete in the hardware business when they can deliver their software on top of 95% of all smart phones instead.
    - wisty 14y ago

geori 14y ago

Anyone who invested in this company post-iPhone 4 and post-"co-CEO" RIM deserved to lose their money.

rdl 14y ago
I invested when they were around $11, thinking the patent, bbm, enterprise management crossplatform, M&A, and residual sales in third world markets would be worth something, and that the market had overreacted. IMO there's a difference between good companies and good stocks in the public market. A cheap price on an ok company can be a good investment; a high price on a good or great company can be a mediocre investment. Kind of the opposite of startups or other illiquid private investments (which largely have a binary outcome). I'm starting to think they'll go out at $8-12 though.
- runako 14y ago
  >> I'm starting to think they'll go out at $8-12 though. Why? What would justify a premium over the after-hours $7.70? Wouldn't a savvy acquirer just wait another quarter or two to get a better price? What's the rush? At the rate they are destroying value, it would seem more likely that they go out for much less than $8.
  - rdl 14y ago
    Usually there is a premium over last trade, and the patents are potentially useful to trolls, etc. now. The main reason for a sale to happen now vs. waiting a year would be if some kind of competitive bidding happened. The big change is that RIM's (worthless) board and senior management are now open to the idea, unlike the previous several years of decline (where it was obvious to everyone, but RIM wouldn't do anything).
  - goodcanadian 14y ago
    Their book value is more than $19. Even the liquid assets minus all liabilities is $6.60. Are you saying that all of their property, patents, and future revenue (decidedly non-zero) are worth less than $1.10?

dakrisht 14y ago

How are these guys still in business? It's out of this world. It's also out of this world how this company can't figure out left from right - they haven't released a single product since the failure that was the "new" Blackberry Bold 9900 - which was a miserable device that crashed 5x a day. And now they're not releasing anything until 2013. Makes you wonder if they're just buying time in the form of bullshit product roadmaps in the hope of an acquisition. It should not take this long to release a new device, a new OS or whatever the hell they are doing over there. It's a shame, BIS and BBM are two great services, but their OS is just such dated trash.

mtgx 14y ago
They lived off inertia from international growth in emergent countries where Android was just getting started and Blackberry was a lot more recognized as a brand. That's how they fooled themselves into thinking that their business and revenues are perfectly fine, and there's nothing threatening them. Complete lack of foresight.
- wmil 14y ago
  Which is surprising. I mean 2 CEOs should give you twice as much foresight, right?
grannyg00se 14y ago
Not really relevant anymore, but I have a 9900 in my hands right now and I think it's the best phone I've ever used. It has never crashed on me. Going on one month always on now. Keyboard is legendary, touch screen is perfect, browser is snappy.
- Torrents 14y ago
  I've got a Torch 9810 that I use and enjoy. Screen is great and I love the keyboard...does what I need. Though it's lacking in apps it seems to have a few advantages over android phones. For example images attached to text messages on my wife's Galaxy II open as a slideshow or something and are displayed as a thumbnail, and as far as I can tell that is a common Android issue and there is currently no workaround. It's too bad RIM hasn't been able to execute better on upgrades.

drivebyacct2 14y ago

But wait! They're going to license BB10! I just want to know if it's that they just accept that that will make them look desperate, or if they acknowledge the company perception is so bad that any glimmer of hope is a positive thing for them at this point?

zeruch 14y ago

I've not been surprised that they have been on a downward slope, but this just seems to be the financial equivalent to a vertical nose dive. Its the speed and acceleration of the decline that just seems to boggle; between RIM and Nokia, its hard to fathom how either former juggernaut could implode with almost Shakespearean-scale tragedy.

BlackNapoleon 14y ago

Part of me wants to say that blogs killed RIM. They did so much to slander a product that was for all intents and purposes doing well at the time. They made it cool to rag on RIM before ragging on RIM was even a "thing" My old BB Bold was the best phone I ever owned. I'm currently using an iphone, but that keyboard when used right and well can NEVER be beat.

glhaynes 14y ago
Turns out: typing isn't the be all end all of a mobile device for the vast majority of people. (And, besides, it's not at all clear that most people type significantly faster on a hardware keyboard anyway.)
mlreed328 14y ago
For all of your rhetoric you are admittedly using an iPhone. I think people who thought their BB was the best device ever, yet joined the exodus to iPhone or Android killed RIM. That is- you killed RIM. Not blogs.

mitjak 14y ago

A question to those at BB: if you're being laid off of leaving, where are you planning to head? There is a growing number of start-ups in Toronto and Montreal, and I wonder if they'd suddenly an influx of available workforce.

canadiancreed 14y ago
As someone that lives a 1/2 hour or so from the Kitchener-Waterloo area I'm thinking it'll have a hard hitting effect on the K-W market, on par with Nortel's implosion in West Ottawa/Kanata. When I moved here I picked the location to be able to hit as many locations as possible for potential employment. With RIM going south, moving closer to Toronto is sounding like the way to go, to say nothing of the rise in competition there will be for Java/C coders

forgotAgain 14y ago

So now we have two companies (Nokia and RIM) in similar circumstances (the Innovators Dilemma). They each saw two paths forward. Each chose their own path. Neither are succeeding. So were they already doomed by the time they chose to act or did they misunderstand the dilemma they faced? It was both. After years of tech homogeneity, people were looking for a change. Apple came along and it was young and fresh, fun and had awesome technology to boot. The incumbents were slow to act. When they did act they failed to recognize that it was a branding problem as well as a technology shortfall. They are toast.

gnaffle 14y ago
I don't think Apple succeeded because people were looking for a change. They just made a smartphone that was usable for regular people (ie iPod users). Nokia could have done that too. Maemo was comparable to (or better than?) Android in 2007. If they had really understood what made the iPhone a success, they could have spent a year repositioning Maemo to be competitive with iOS, just like Google did with Android. Of course, they didn't since they were already heavily invested in Symbian, and that's why they stumbled.
- forgotAgain 14y ago
  usuable for regular people - that's awesome technology. Maybe Nokia could have made a technically competitive smartphone in 2008 but they didn't. Why not? They thought they were competing on technology and that they had time. They weren't though. They were in the middle of a market changeover and they didn't see it. If they came out with a phone that was technically competitive I don't think people would have bought it. They have one today and it's sales are disappointing.
  - gnaffle 14y ago
    I agree, although think if they had one not long after the iPhone launched, a lot of people would have bought them because of brand loyalty. If you already had a Nokia your default choice was usually a new Nokia. And they had a pretty strong brand at the time (and 70-80% market share?).

adrinavarro 14y ago

RIM needs more coders and less executives. Their products are lacking from basic stuff, just for example: - no IMAP folders means that I can't get two-way sync without getting every single email, no way to avoid 'bypass inbox' mails, it's that or just one way - software, and social integration on the PlayBook is really bad and too 'alpha' (hm, can't even send a DM typing the twitter account name) to be used. And we have unstable software, lacking of the most basic functionality (like… editing bookmarks, storing notes, and with frequent glitches and bugs, disappearing folders…) You cannot get adoption with such a bad experience, and that's why I understand that BB10 is the way to go. Their hardware is excellent, their software is a few years (and thousands of lines of code) behind of where it should be. If you cannot attract developers, hire them and make your own ecosystem. In the end, social networks and usual convenience apps (weather, netflix, browser, twitter, facebook, presentations, sync, calendar, contacts) with a good support is all you need to attract a decent user base. If every time someone tries out my PlayBook they run into a stupid glitch or crash, it's clear that they aren't going to buy one, even if it's cheap and it's a real beauty in terms of hardware and underlying system. And my dad isn't going to get a new BlackBerry either. They're getting more expensive and he still can't have a decent Gmail integration without stupid 'features' like skipping inbox or two-way sync. There is no flexibility, menus are still too complicated and messy. It's no wonder that they're making losses. I guess I'm the only one still sticking to BB out there without hating it or being forced to…

teyc 14y ago

This is so interesting. We now have: 1. Apple - who makes great hardware and great software winning 2. Google - who doesn't make hardware and gives away OK software winning 3. RIM - who makes good hardware and OK software losing 4. MS - who doesn't make hardware and makes OK software losing It goes to show that business model both matters and doesn't matter.

kjhughes 14y ago
Or maybe it goes to show that your good/great/ok assessments across hardware/software categories aren't good predictors of winning/losing.

cs702 14y ago

The company appears to have the financial wherewithal to last for quite a while as it attempts a turn-around.[1] So I expect them to continue trying with the existing business model for at least a few more quarters before they give up and join the Android bandwagon or sell their soul to Microsoft like Nokia. [1] The latest financial statements at http://press.rim.com/content/dam/rim/press/PDF/Financial/FY2013/Q1_FY2013_Press_Release.pdf http://press.rim.com/content/dam/rim/press/PDF/Financial/FY2... show that the company ended the quarter with close to $1,467 million in cold hard cash and $780 million in investments, and no debt (page 8). Moreover, all of the reported loss came from non-cash accounting write-offs and accelerated amortization; the company's combined cash and investments actually increased during the quarter, from $2,111 million to $2,247 million (page 9) -- that's right: they ended the quarter with more money than they started!

copperred 14y ago
The market is pricing the company with the expectation that the cash will be gone in the future. It sounds like the cash position may start to decrease in the next quarter.
mleonhard 14y ago
Their subscriber base also grew from 77 M to 78 M. Their market share dropped, but isn't that because the market grew?

mzuvella 14y ago

Goodnight RIM

raheemm 14y ago

This drama can only be saved if a Steve Jobs character shows up at Waterloo.

JVIDEL 14y ago

You know for a while it was kinda funny, but now I'm really starting to worry about RIM. Is like they are trying to commit company-wide suicide, it still has a big chunk of the market, it's not "done for" RIM still has a chance, but it seems its poised to destroy itself.

oz 14y ago

I, as well as HN user 'HorizonXP' have commented extensively on RIM, so I suppose I need to give a statement. I tried and failed to compose a meaningful comment, so, quite simply: I'm switching to Android later this year. Probably a Galaxy SIII. My current BB is my first smartphone, which I suspect is why I have such a fondness toward it. The fact that Blackberry data plans are dirt cheap and unlimited also didn't hurt. But features are lacking. For example: If I create a playlist, I cannot change the playlist order. So I was looking forward to BB10 to hopefully achieve something resembling feature parity with iOS and Android. I was checking Crackberry.com twice per day just to hear the latest on BB10. I eagerly digested the reheated leaks of the 2 models and the new BBM interface. But I can't wait any longer. Digicel, the dominant carrier in Jamaica, just launched 4G yesterday. Hell, the ad's playing on the radio right now! Prices aren't too shabby (USD17 for a 1GB plan). I can afford it. It makes sense for me to switch, too. My many domains are all hosted on Google Apps. I use Postbox as my email client because of how well it supports Gmail. Might as well complete the last mile. Goodbye, RIM. I'll always remember you. Love, Oz

HorizonXP 14y ago
I already have a Galaxy Nexus, and I just bought a Nexus 7 tablet for the NFC capabilities, because I couldn't wait any longer for the PlayBook 4G with NFC. I'll still be developing for BlackBerry 10, and BlackBerry 7 will still be my daily device. But I will be shifting my focus to Android for now, for strategic reasons. RIM dun goofed if they're losing people like me.
- oz 14y ago
  When even you're pissed, I know it's bad. I thought of getting the Galaxy Nexus due to the stock Android, but my carrier in Jamaica just launched the quad-core S3 for USD 715, so I'm gonna go with that. What's your PIN? Might as well enjoy it while it lasts...
  - HorizonXP 14y ago
    Do not get any Android phone that is not Nexus. You will regret it in the end.

drawkbox 14y ago

I actually thought RIM would go Windows Phone and it made more sense before Nokia. The enterprise fit would have been nicer maybe for them. Not that I am buying any of it, the old days of enterprise pushing consumer sales I think has flipped with Apple. Consumer usage now influences work more maybe.

mutt2012 14y ago

LTE.. fucking LTE is here. RIM, you dun goofed.

sirlancer 14y ago

I think we should really take a moment to thank RIM for what they've done for the market place. If it weren't for them, where would mobile instant messaging be? Think down the road to when most of us will be moving on from Google to the next great "thing" I know when that time comes that I will be forever thankful that I was able to share personal documents with family members overseas using Google Drive. We should be thanking them for being a part of the cycle that is the modern world of technology; a stepping stone and a changing interface for information exchange. Life goes on. And thank god for RIM.

zmmmmm 14y ago

Wow, the level of delusion is just amazing: In a conference call with analysts, Heins said getting the new system right was more important than doing it quickly. “I will not deliver a product to the market that is not ready to meet the needs of our customers,” said Heins. These guys are sitting in the armory of their castle, polishing their weapons, and the barbarians have already stormed over the ramparts, smashed through the walls and set fire to most of the village. But no, it's more important to get those weapons "just right". Or to look at it another way, if BB10 is in such a parlous state that after all these delays it still cannot be shipped then there are huge, enormous problems with the technical competency inside RIM. And if that is true then we can assume that it will never ship in good shape because time is not actually a solution to such problems.

zmonkeyz 14y ago
..and yet if they release too early when it's not ready they have to hear "it just seems like beta software" "it's too unpolished"

stevenwei 14y ago

The biggest problem now is they are trying to play catch up, and are skating to where the puck is at. Jelly Bean just came out, iOS 6 is shipping in the fall. By next year they'll be even further behind. I think there's a very real possibility that they won't manage to ship BB10 at all.

josteink 14y ago

BB10 is just turning into the Duke Nukem OS of our time. It's sad that a company with so much talent can be mismanaged into something as horrible as this, but on the other hand it's hard not to laugh when you read about their continued failures. We are talking about a company which released a tablet with a OS they called complete, which couldn't check email. They are so completely out of touch with what people want, that there is no way they can make. Even if the do get BB10 out the door, it will be a disaster. It will be underwhelming. It will be a monument to what bad management can do with product delivery. I'm with ars technica on this one: RIM is on death watch. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/now-officially-on-our-death-watch-rim/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/now-officially-on-our...

phoenixwizard 14y ago

They have their unique clients !! They have their unique users. They need to figure a way to just strengthen what they are already good at !!

gooddaysir 14y ago

RIM says they're going to launch next year, when the iPhone 5 launches, but I think it's a stalling tactic. They surely don't want BB10 going up against Apple's 5 and still looking inadaquate. Unless someone buys RIM, it's dead man walking, and they know it.

georgespencer 14y ago

In the last four years, RIMM's market cap has fallen by an average of $49m per day. AAPL has risen by $261.7m per day over the same period. I think that about sums it up.

theorique 14y ago

5,000 fewer RIM jobs - this is a bad day for the people of Kitchener-Waterloo and around the world

option_greek 14y ago

Are there any examples that firing people when a company does bad improves its chances of turn around ? It seems like a stupid move by RIM to fire 5k people when their product is already delayed.