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No, they're both perfect. The comment I was responding to put forth the idea that the UK is an outlier when it's not far off from the cost in big chunks of the

No, they're both perfect. The comment I was responding to put forth the idea that the UK is an outlier when it's not far off from the cost in big chunks of the US. What's going on in California is no more self-inflicted than the UK choosing to ditch coal or choosing to be heavily reliant on Russian gas.

zdragnar 2y ago
California doesn't rely on Russian gas, and still has one (small) coal power plant. Even so, cross the border into Oregon and their rates are half... CA is literally double the national average price in the US. CA makes up about 11% of the US population. So, just short of 90% of the country pays half of what they do. CA is a big place, but simply is not representative of the country as a whole. They are, in fact, an outlier in many metrics.
- inferiorhuman 2y ago
  … so? How is any of that relevant? I wasn't comparing the whole country to the UK, I was comparing California to the UK. There are more people in California than in a number of developed countries (e.g. Netherlands, Portugal, Taiwan, Singapore). PG&E alone provides electricity to more people (16 million across 5.5 million accounts) than the entire population of New England (15 million). California as a single market is an entirely valid comparison.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    You said Wha? Fair play if you think the US is not a developed country California and Hawaii are both extreme outliers in the US, and aside from gasoline prices in California, both are on the extreme end of outliers in comparing to Europe on most metrics as well. Neither are good comparisons for what is "normal"... The only thing the comparison does is prove that the UK has high energy prices.
    - inferiorhuman 2y ago
      Last I checked California was part of the United States and the comparison I made was not about the US as a whole.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
California is terrible company to keep, and has the worst energy prices in the US. We condescendingly laugh at Texas when their grid shuts down, meanwhile we pay 3x the price and our grid burns down towns and is frequently disabled. We have a state regulatory commission that sets price controls on electricity, which the price at operational costs +10%. Naturally, the costs to deliver power goes up every single time it is assessed. California is also home to laws that every new house must have rooftop solar, despite excess solar production, in the midst of a housing crisis. California is also home to income based electricity rates. There was even discussion of literally taxing individuals for using the sun to generate their own power.
- inferiorhuman 2y ago
  California is terrible company to keep, and has the worst energy prices in the US. Which is exactly what makes the comparison apt. meanwhile we pay 3x the price and our grid burns down towns and is frequently disabled. Yeah, no. This week saw PSPS alerts for maybe a few hundred people in the Bay Area for 1? 2? days. That's a massive improvement over whole counties being down for a week. Texas continues to struggle mightily with adverse weather — ERCOT was way off in their demand forecasts during the 2022 storms. It came down to sheer luck that they didn't see a repeat of 2021. Let's not forget that Texas is cheaper until it's not. 2021 saw residential power reach $9,000/kWh.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I would add that California struggles mightily with adverse weather too. In our case it is wind and lightning, which is different from Texas. The 2019 California PSPSs were over 3 million people at a time, and some people went without power for many days. California hasn't experienced statewide subzero temperatures, so Im not convinced our grid would preform any better under similarly extreme circumstances. Either way, my point wasn't to start a pissing contest about which is worse, but point out the Hypocrisy of Californian condescension. Surely we can agree California isn't a shining beacon of wise grid management.
- roenxi 2y ago

zdragnar 2y ago

California doesn't rely on Russian gas, and still has one (small) coal power plant. Even so, cross the border into Oregon and their rates are half... CA is literally double the national average price in the US. CA makes up about 11% of the US population. So, just short of 90% of the country pays half of what they do. CA is a big place, but simply is not representative of the country as a whole. They are, in fact, an outlier in many metrics.

inferiorhuman 2y ago
… so? How is any of that relevant? I wasn't comparing the whole country to the UK, I was comparing California to the UK. There are more people in California than in a number of developed countries (e.g. Netherlands, Portugal, Taiwan, Singapore). PG&E alone provides electricity to more people (16 million across 5.5 million accounts) than the entire population of New England (15 million). California as a single market is an entirely valid comparison.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  You said Wha? Fair play if you think the US is not a developed country California and Hawaii are both extreme outliers in the US, and aside from gasoline prices in California, both are on the extreme end of outliers in comparing to Europe on most metrics as well. Neither are good comparisons for what is "normal"... The only thing the comparison does is prove that the UK has high energy prices.
  - inferiorhuman 2y ago
    Last I checked California was part of the United States and the comparison I made was not about the US as a whole.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

California is terrible company to keep, and has the worst energy prices in the US. We condescendingly laugh at Texas when their grid shuts down, meanwhile we pay 3x the price and our grid burns down towns and is frequently disabled. We have a state regulatory commission that sets price controls on electricity, which the price at operational costs +10%. Naturally, the costs to deliver power goes up every single time it is assessed. California is also home to laws that every new house must have rooftop solar, despite excess solar production, in the midst of a housing crisis. California is also home to income based electricity rates. There was even discussion of literally taxing individuals for using the sun to generate their own power.

inferiorhuman 2y ago
California is terrible company to keep, and has the worst energy prices in the US. Which is exactly what makes the comparison apt. meanwhile we pay 3x the price and our grid burns down towns and is frequently disabled. Yeah, no. This week saw PSPS alerts for maybe a few hundred people in the Bay Area for 1? 2? days. That's a massive improvement over whole counties being down for a week. Texas continues to struggle mightily with adverse weather — ERCOT was way off in their demand forecasts during the 2022 storms. It came down to sheer luck that they didn't see a repeat of 2021. Let's not forget that Texas is cheaper until it's not. 2021 saw residential power reach $9,000/kWh.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I would add that California struggles mightily with adverse weather too. In our case it is wind and lightning, which is different from Texas. The 2019 California PSPSs were over 3 million people at a time, and some people went without power for many days. California hasn't experienced statewide subzero temperatures, so Im not convinced our grid would preform any better under similarly extreme circumstances. Either way, my point wasn't to start a pissing contest about which is worse, but point out the Hypocrisy of Californian condescension. Surely we can agree California isn't a shining beacon of wise grid management.
roenxi 2y ago