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I don't think any of your claims are supported by available data. Would you be able to provide some citations to give evidence for what you say? Going through

I don't think any of your claims are supported by available data. Would you be able to provide some citations to give evidence for what you say? Going through point by point: > has left the UK with the highest electricity prices in the developed world Since when? As of 2023, high, but not highest. [1] > factories and industry closing their doors Could you provide evidence that factories and industry are actually on the decline in the UK? Second, can you provide evidence it is related to energy prices? It seems the data contradicts this type of correlation [2]. Energy prices spiked in 2021 and are now down, to very similar levels as they were over the last decade. > the most vulnerable in society choosing between heating or eating Citations needed, and also to demonstrate that this is a new phenomenon. Considering energy prices are lower in the UK than recently, this decision would not be due to an increase in energy prices. > very real prospect of blackouts this winter. According to [3]: " The risk of blackouts in Britain will be lower this winter as new gas generation capacity and greater electricity imports from Europe should ensure a larger buffer against potential shortages" > We dreamed of a future of energy abundance, almost too cheap to meter Who is we? Was this a party platform? Propaganda? Just something you were lead to believe? > We have the technology in nuclear to do just that and perhaps we will one day. First claim is not supported. Is it possible to actually produce that much nuclear energy. Also, energy markets are global. Excess energy is sold, it is not necessarily divided out locally for free. Further, stupid cheap energy would create it's own demand, migration of energy usages. > So celebrate Britain turning off 500MW of emergency buffer supply A single plant is the buffer supply? > ignore the 50GW of coal power that China brought online in the 12 months of 2023 alone. That is a what-about-ism ‐----- [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/589765/average-electricity-prices-uk/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/589765/average-electrici... [3] https://www.thetimes.com/business-money/energy/article/blackout-risk-lower-this-winter-says-national-grid-20l652p52 https://www.thetimes.com/business-money/energy/article/black...

scrlk 2y ago
I believe the claims may be based off of the recently published Foundations essay: https://ukfoundations.co/ https://ukfoundations.co/ Specifically, the "Britain: the first energy superpower" section: https://ukfoundations.co/#footnote-source-6 https://ukfoundations.co/#footnote-source-6
- rtpg 2y ago
  It would be interesting if they had put places apart from France in some of the cost analysis, since France has (by my understanding) extremely low costs for industrial electricity. Comparing most countries to France would end with "well we're not doing better than some of the best", but doesn't provide the full context. (If I'd be cynical, I'd guess graphing more countries would show that the UK is not unique here, but I don't know). Bit surprising that even in this supposed high priced environment, renewable energy seems to not have a market in the UK (at least according to this article). Lots of the world seems to be creating those markets!
  - scrlk 2y ago
    The UK and France have been rivals for centuries - old habits die hard! :^) Renewables have seen significant growth over the past decade, particularly offshore wind, for which the UK is ideally positioned: https://grid.iamkate.com/ https://grid.iamkate.com/
  - eliaspro 2y ago
    Energy prices in France being that low is not a result of nuclear energy, but only possible due to extreme subsidies for nuclear power there.
    - rtpg 2y ago
      I'm willing to accept that, but hasn't every country in the world been subsidizing energy the past couple of years? Is it more agressive than in other countries? In other words, what behavior is distinct between the UK and France (or other countries)?
      - seadan83 2y ago
        For france at least, two thirds of energy is nuclear, falling demand, and now lots of renewables coming online [1] Falling demand is notable to me. Though, the nuclear backbone and full embrace of renewable deployments is IMO smart [1] https://fortune.com/2024/06/16/electricity-prices-france-negative-renewable-energy-supply-solar-power-wind-turbines/ https://fortune.com/2024/06/16/electricity-prices-france-neg...
Kognito 2y ago
I sense you might not be arguing in good faith, but here's at least a mild effort to placate you. > Since when? As of 2023, high, but not highest. Since 2024, at least. [1][2] > Could you provide evidence that factories and industry are actually on the decline in the UK? Tata Steel is the most topical one, production moving to India. Easy to find sources for that, it's all over the news. > Energy prices spiked in 2021 and are now down. False. Industrial prices have grown every year since 2011 [3] > The risk of blackouts in Britain will be lower this winter... Right, so you agree with me that there's a risk of blackouts then? > Who is we? Was this a party platform? Propaganda? Just something you were lead to believe? It's a reference to a nuclear energy optimism from the 20th century. Some reading material for you. [4] > Is it possible to actually produce that much nuclear energy. Of course it is. Energy is hard to sell long distance in large quantities. We're perfectly capable of building more supply than demand (FYI that's how the grid operates to this day) and we should certainly be encouraging more demand to improve living standards. > A single plant is the buffer supply? No, I never claimed that it was. But coal power has been used mainly to provide a buffer supply only as needed to prioritise cleaner generation in recent years so it's accurate to say we're turning off (some) buffer supply. > That is a what-about-ism It is, but I rather enjoy paying attention to the wider world instead of navel gazing and virtue signalling. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/09/26/britain-burdened-most-expensive-electricity-prices-in-world/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/09/26/britain-burd... [2] https://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/uk-household-electricity-prices-rose-to-levels-higher-than-those-in-any-eu-country/ https://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/uk-household-electricity-price... [3] https://www.ibisworld.com/uk/bed/industrial-electricity-prices/44190/ https://www.ibisworld.com/uk/bed/industrial-electricity-pric... [4] https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/students/history-101/too-cheap-to-meter.html https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/students/history-10...
- Symbiote 2y ago
  The prices very clearly correlate with the gas price increase following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Britain's fault is in relying too heavily on imported gas — not just for electricity, but also building heat — and not improving building standards. European countries with similar climates have extensive district heating systems and better (sometimes much better!) building insulation. There are still homes without double glazing in Britain! England also banned building on-shore wind turbines.

scrlk 2y ago

I believe the claims may be based off of the recently published Foundations essay: https://ukfoundations.co/ https://ukfoundations.co/ Specifically, the "Britain: the first energy superpower" section: https://ukfoundations.co/#footnote-source-6 https://ukfoundations.co/#footnote-source-6

rtpg 2y ago
It would be interesting if they had put places apart from France in some of the cost analysis, since France has (by my understanding) extremely low costs for industrial electricity. Comparing most countries to France would end with "well we're not doing better than some of the best", but doesn't provide the full context. (If I'd be cynical, I'd guess graphing more countries would show that the UK is not unique here, but I don't know). Bit surprising that even in this supposed high priced environment, renewable energy seems to not have a market in the UK (at least according to this article). Lots of the world seems to be creating those markets!
- scrlk 2y ago
  The UK and France have been rivals for centuries - old habits die hard! :^) Renewables have seen significant growth over the past decade, particularly offshore wind, for which the UK is ideally positioned: https://grid.iamkate.com/ https://grid.iamkate.com/
- eliaspro 2y ago
  Energy prices in France being that low is not a result of nuclear energy, but only possible due to extreme subsidies for nuclear power there.
  - rtpg 2y ago
    I'm willing to accept that, but hasn't every country in the world been subsidizing energy the past couple of years? Is it more agressive than in other countries? In other words, what behavior is distinct between the UK and France (or other countries)?
    - seadan83 2y ago
      For france at least, two thirds of energy is nuclear, falling demand, and now lots of renewables coming online [1] Falling demand is notable to me. Though, the nuclear backbone and full embrace of renewable deployments is IMO smart [1] https://fortune.com/2024/06/16/electricity-prices-france-negative-renewable-energy-supply-solar-power-wind-turbines/ https://fortune.com/2024/06/16/electricity-prices-france-neg...

Kognito 2y ago

I sense you might not be arguing in good faith, but here's at least a mild effort to placate you. > Since when? As of 2023, high, but not highest. Since 2024, at least. [1][2] > Could you provide evidence that factories and industry are actually on the decline in the UK? Tata Steel is the most topical one, production moving to India. Easy to find sources for that, it's all over the news. > Energy prices spiked in 2021 and are now down. False. Industrial prices have grown every year since 2011 [3] > The risk of blackouts in Britain will be lower this winter... Right, so you agree with me that there's a risk of blackouts then? > Who is we? Was this a party platform? Propaganda? Just something you were lead to believe? It's a reference to a nuclear energy optimism from the 20th century. Some reading material for you. [4] > Is it possible to actually produce that much nuclear energy. Of course it is. Energy is hard to sell long distance in large quantities. We're perfectly capable of building more supply than demand (FYI that's how the grid operates to this day) and we should certainly be encouraging more demand to improve living standards. > A single plant is the buffer supply? No, I never claimed that it was. But coal power has been used mainly to provide a buffer supply only as needed to prioritise cleaner generation in recent years so it's accurate to say we're turning off (some) buffer supply. > That is a what-about-ism It is, but I rather enjoy paying attention to the wider world instead of navel gazing and virtue signalling. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/09/26/britain-burdened-most-expensive-electricity-prices-in-world/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/09/26/britain-burd... [2] https://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/uk-household-electricity-prices-rose-to-levels-higher-than-those-in-any-eu-country/ https://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/uk-household-electricity-price... [3] https://www.ibisworld.com/uk/bed/industrial-electricity-prices/44190/ https://www.ibisworld.com/uk/bed/industrial-electricity-pric... [4] https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/students/history-101/too-cheap-to-meter.html https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/students/history-10...

Symbiote 2y ago
The prices very clearly correlate with the gas price increase following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Britain's fault is in relying too heavily on imported gas — not just for electricity, but also building heat — and not improving building standards. European countries with similar climates have extensive district heating systems and better (sometimes much better!) building insulation. There are still homes without double glazing in Britain! England also banned building on-shore wind turbines.