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> "Neal has been adverse to Quinn Emanuel a number of times, and won every case." I don't think I have ever before seen, in an official public statement, a "Th

by swores 2y ago

> "Neal has been adverse to Quinn Emanuel a number of times, and won every case." I don't think I have ever before seen, in an official public statement, a "The lawyer we just hired always beats the lawyer they just hired!" boast, and it seems ridiculous - it's almost even hinting in the direction that they think the case should be decided on quality of lawyer rather than that their case should win on merit.

nickff 2y ago
Selecting a lawyer with a proven record, and expressing confidence in them are not "hinting in the direction that they think the case should be decided on quality of lawyer". They're smart strategies, whether you decide to take the case to court, or seek a settlement (on either side).
- swores 2y ago
  I agree that it is of course smart to choose a lawyer you think can win, it's the public statement about the lawyer's track record that seems crazy to me, not the hiring decision.
  - nickff 2y ago
    Expressing confidence publicly just seems like a ‘stronger’ way of expressing it (as compared to doing so privately). Perhaps Automattic is trying to get WP Engine stakeholders to press for a settlement? What about this “seems crazy”?
    - swores 2y ago
      It makes no difference in their battle against WP Engine, who would very quickly discover which lawyers they're going up against with or without this blog post. That line in the blog post is aimed at public perception, not WP Engine's perception, and from a PR point of view there's not really any benefit to it only downside - I guess their thinking is that some members of public might think "the winning lawyer wouldn't join the losing team so Automattic must be in the right here", but it actually makes them look like their legal defence is weak enough that they need to resort to trying to win through legal skills rather than business facts. When I call it "crazy" I'm talking from the point of view of someone who has drafted a couple of announcements quite similar to this one, and many others that weren't related to defending legal cases but were still walking tricking lines in PR/comms, and I just can't imagine a line like that being suggested by anyone I've worked with and can't imagine letting it slip into a release I was involved in.
    - finnthehuman 2y ago
      A sentiment that a lawyer is so good they will overcome this challenge rather than conveying that the lawyer will prove the questions of law and fact resolve it in their favor... it just... well... seems like the kind of shit that's for a TV show where it's not about contesting facts and law.
      - nickff 2y ago
        Lawyering is not just about knowing the law and proving facts, for an example of this, I recommend the book about Theranos: “Bad Blood”.
        finnthehuman 2y ago
        Yeah, ofc, the lawyer skill gradient exists and causes slam-dunk cases to be decided in the "wrong" [0] direction. It's just odd to say you will win because the lawyer is that good, makes it sound like you might be wrong but are going to win simply because you have better council. [0] There's gotta be a fancy latin-sounding lawyer word for this, right?
        singleshot_ 2y ago
        No one is going to “win.” They’re going to settle. The quality of your lawyer will absolutely, positively influence your pleasure in the settlement. There are facts and law bad enough to overwhelm any lawyer, but usually there’s garbage on either side of the case and each lawyer will be able to use his or her skill to handle the garbage. > There's gotta be a fancy latin-sounding lawyer word for this, right? “America”
        FireBeyond 2y ago
        WPEngine's goal may be to break Automattic's exclusive, perpetual and irrevocable license on WordPress. That's something I could (especially given his comments) never, ever, ever see Matt conceding, so they may end up going to trial (as part of their lawsuit centers on the self-dealing, inappropriate use of non-profits, etc., and getting judgment there might be the only route to that).
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sourraspberry 2y ago
> Neal has taken on sloppy Quinn Emanuel many times, many many times, and each case he has won BIGLY. WP ENGINE IS THE ENEMENY OF THE PEOPLE!
- delfinom 2y ago
  I mean Quinn Emanuel is sloppy https://venturebeat.com/business/apple-nokia-win-2m-after-samsung-its-legal-team-leak-secrets/ https://venturebeat.com/business/apple-nokia-win-2m-after-sa... Lol
- draw_down 2y ago
  [dead]
skmurphy 2y ago
The audience for this statement is WP Engine's significant customers. WordPress is in a position to do much more damage to WP Engine in the near term, which will reflect poorly on the IT manager for selecting them as a vendor. WordPress is not so subtly encouraging those customers to reconsider their decision and migrate off WP Engine. If WP Engine decides to fork, it devalues the "just like WordPress but better" value proposition and increases operating expenses as they can no longer inherit improvements from WordPress. A fork may mean they don't hit the growth targets they promised Silver Lake. Selecting this attorney is putting down a marker that WordPress wants a verdict, not a settlement. The other wild card potentially more damaging to WP Engine and Silver Lake is the discovery process inherent in any lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, but I don't think most commenters are correctly decoding the relative bargaining power of the two sides.
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  Why would they need to fork? WordPress itself is from B2, hence its licensing being GPL. WordPress cannot adopt the dual licensing of other A/GPL software companies like Cal.com because it's not even their copyright in the first place. Therefore, all WordPress changes must continue to be GPL. The only parts that might need to be replicated are things that are not necessarily part of the core codebase, such as the plugin repository, but it seems people are already starting to move towards a decentralized model for these.
- mikeyinternews 2y ago
  I work for an agency that is part of a (very) large holding company. The IT dept for the holding company mandated that all agencies within to host their WordPress sites in WP Engine. I manage the sites for my company and two sister agencies, and just between the three companies there are 18 sites, not including the Dev/Staging variants! There are over 1500 agencies...granted not all have WP sites, but I am certain that many do. So if this reflects on the IT manager who made this call, it would be hugely magnified!
- mthoms 2y ago
  Or... hear me out... Matt has the legal acumen of a pissed-off pre-teen and he thought this was clever. Occam's Razor and all that.

by swores 2y ago

nickff 2y ago

Selecting a lawyer with a proven record, and expressing confidence in them are not "hinting in the direction that they think the case should be decided on quality of lawyer". They're smart strategies, whether you decide to take the case to court, or seek a settlement (on either side).

swores 2y ago
I agree that it is of course smart to choose a lawyer you think can win, it's the public statement about the lawyer's track record that seems crazy to me, not the hiring decision.
- nickff 2y ago
  Expressing confidence publicly just seems like a ‘stronger’ way of expressing it (as compared to doing so privately). Perhaps Automattic is trying to get WP Engine stakeholders to press for a settlement? What about this “seems crazy”?
  - swores 2y ago
    It makes no difference in their battle against WP Engine, who would very quickly discover which lawyers they're going up against with or without this blog post. That line in the blog post is aimed at public perception, not WP Engine's perception, and from a PR point of view there's not really any benefit to it only downside - I guess their thinking is that some members of public might think "the winning lawyer wouldn't join the losing team so Automattic must be in the right here", but it actually makes them look like their legal defence is weak enough that they need to resort to trying to win through legal skills rather than business facts. When I call it "crazy" I'm talking from the point of view of someone who has drafted a couple of announcements quite similar to this one, and many others that weren't related to defending legal cases but were still walking tricking lines in PR/comms, and I just can't imagine a line like that being suggested by anyone I've worked with and can't imagine letting it slip into a release I was involved in.
  - finnthehuman 2y ago
    A sentiment that a lawyer is so good they will overcome this challenge rather than conveying that the lawyer will prove the questions of law and fact resolve it in their favor... it just... well... seems like the kind of shit that's for a TV show where it's not about contesting facts and law.
    - nickff 2y ago
      Lawyering is not just about knowing the law and proving facts, for an example of this, I recommend the book about Theranos: “Bad Blood”.
      - finnthehuman 2y ago
        Yeah, ofc, the lawyer skill gradient exists and causes slam-dunk cases to be decided in the "wrong" [0] direction. It's just odd to say you will win because the lawyer is that good, makes it sound like you might be wrong but are going to win simply because you have better council. [0] There's gotta be a fancy latin-sounding lawyer word for this, right?
        singleshot_ 2y ago
        No one is going to “win.” They’re going to settle. The quality of your lawyer will absolutely, positively influence your pleasure in the settlement. There are facts and law bad enough to overwhelm any lawyer, but usually there’s garbage on either side of the case and each lawyer will be able to use his or her skill to handle the garbage. > There's gotta be a fancy latin-sounding lawyer word for this, right? “America”
        FireBeyond 2y ago
        WPEngine's goal may be to break Automattic's exclusive, perpetual and irrevocable license on WordPress. That's something I could (especially given his comments) never, ever, ever see Matt conceding, so they may end up going to trial (as part of their lawsuit centers on the self-dealing, inappropriate use of non-profits, etc., and getting judgment there might be the only route to that).

deleted 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago

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sourraspberry 2y ago

> Neal has taken on sloppy Quinn Emanuel many times, many many times, and each case he has won BIGLY. WP ENGINE IS THE ENEMENY OF THE PEOPLE!

delfinom 2y ago
I mean Quinn Emanuel is sloppy https://venturebeat.com/business/apple-nokia-win-2m-after-samsung-its-legal-team-leak-secrets/ https://venturebeat.com/business/apple-nokia-win-2m-after-sa... Lol
draw_down 2y ago
[dead]

skmurphy 2y ago

The audience for this statement is WP Engine's significant customers. WordPress is in a position to do much more damage to WP Engine in the near term, which will reflect poorly on the IT manager for selecting them as a vendor. WordPress is not so subtly encouraging those customers to reconsider their decision and migrate off WP Engine. If WP Engine decides to fork, it devalues the "just like WordPress but better" value proposition and increases operating expenses as they can no longer inherit improvements from WordPress. A fork may mean they don't hit the growth targets they promised Silver Lake. Selecting this attorney is putting down a marker that WordPress wants a verdict, not a settlement. The other wild card potentially more damaging to WP Engine and Silver Lake is the discovery process inherent in any lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, but I don't think most commenters are correctly decoding the relative bargaining power of the two sides.

satvikpendem 2y ago
Why would they need to fork? WordPress itself is from B2, hence its licensing being GPL. WordPress cannot adopt the dual licensing of other A/GPL software companies like Cal.com because it's not even their copyright in the first place. Therefore, all WordPress changes must continue to be GPL. The only parts that might need to be replicated are things that are not necessarily part of the core codebase, such as the plugin repository, but it seems people are already starting to move towards a decentralized model for these.
mikeyinternews 2y ago
I work for an agency that is part of a (very) large holding company. The IT dept for the holding company mandated that all agencies within to host their WordPress sites in WP Engine. I manage the sites for my company and two sister agencies, and just between the three companies there are 18 sites, not including the Dev/Staging variants! There are over 1500 agencies...granted not all have WP sites, but I am certain that many do. So if this reflects on the IT manager who made this call, it would be hugely magnified!
mthoms 2y ago
Or... hear me out... Matt has the legal acumen of a pissed-off pre-teen and he thought this was clever. Occam's Razor and all that.