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In New Zealand we're very much natural disaster prone. I run a SaaS working out of home - we wired the house for generator backup and have a starlink unit that

by RowanH 2y ago

In New Zealand we're very much natural disaster prone. I run a SaaS working out of home - we wired the house for generator backup and have a starlink unit that sits in a box exactly for this reason, even if the proverbial hits the fan for a week I can still keep on top of the business. Every couple of months the geny gets sparked up and everything tested. For a very small investment it's very comforting to know we've always got power/internet, regardless of what happens.

fennecfoxy 2y ago
As a Kiwi I wouldn't say we're prone to natural disasters per se. Certainly not on a yearly basis. Though that said, Mt. Taranaki is meant to do the big boom soonish. That'll be interesting.
rafaelmn 2y ago
Wondering if solar/batteries would do the same thing as a generator but cleaner and also useful in general ? Because I've thought about solving a similar scenario but just assumed solar/batteries would be the play here.
- parl_match 2y ago
  If you spent 10 minutes running the numbers, you'd probably answer your question pretty handily.
  - h0l0cube 2y ago
    Depends on the price of batteries, which are rapidly declining. Within the next few years the numbers will change in favor of batteries. Though it also depends on the load and having enough space/sunlight for the solar array
    - parl_match 2y ago
      My quick math came up short on batteries. But as you say, it's worth running those numbers every year. I can't imagine I'll be sitting here in 2030 saying "batteries aren't there yet".
      - h0l0cube 2y ago
        > I can't imagine I'll be sitting here in 2030 saying "batteries aren't there yet". Or if you're looking now at sodium ion. It's only just hitting the consumer market, but it's already cheap enough for energy storage at the scale GP is talking about. Might take a few years for cell quality, inverter, and charging technology to improve, but by 2030 it will be so dirt cheap to the point that it would be economically sensible for any household.
        parl_match 2y ago
        Last year, when I did the math, batteries still had a 15 year payoff time. I'm not going to be in this house in 15 years. If the state subsidized it more (it is kind of a public good imo), or I could easily roll it into house value, I'd do it. I'm trying to move to a nicer house. When I do that, I'll almost certainly just go for it.
        h0l0cube 2y ago
        I'm not sure whether you read my comment, but I was specifically talking about sodium ion which are absurdly cheap even before efficiencies of scale enter the equation. I don't think many are doing the math on that because it's only just become available on Alibaba. BMSes and chargers don't really exist for it yet, but there are whole battery packs for sale.
        parl_match 2y ago
        No, I read your comment. I was just thinking about 2030. Also, no offense, but I'm not trusting a brand new energy storage technology bolted to the wall of my house. I'll businesses trial it out first for a few years.
    - jmb99 2y ago
      I can buy a used diesel/propane/gas/pick your fuel generator today for a few hundred bucks that could power most of the essentials in my house. I bought a brand new one during an extended power outage due to storms last year for $500 CAD. That and 80L of gas (~$120 CAD) can run my sump pumps, fridge, freezer, the electronic side of my furnace, my homelab server rack (including 6 PoE access points), my workstation, and key lighting - for 5 days. If I cut that back to essentials, closer to 3 weeks. That’s roughly 200kWh for $120, plus $500 up front. Currently, the absolute cheapest I can find lithium batteries (I am planning a solar+grid load-balancing setup) is about $160CAD/kwh. To prepare for the worst case (i.e. minimal solar generation during and following the storm - say, middle of winter/happens to be cloudy/panels are damaged/etc) I’d need to spend over $30,000 in batteries alone to have the same capacity as $120 of gas. Not to mention the sheer amount of space that would take. And the cost of solar panels (10kW actual generation capacity, minimum, to keep essentials running), at roughly $1/W in Canada, adds another $10,000 to that estimate. And that’s not including the cost of installation, which based on what I’ve heard, probably adds another $10-20k. While there are some interesting advances being made, I do not believe that battery capacity costs will decrease by 3-4 orders of magnitude “within the next few years,” unless you anticipate gasoline/diesel/etc prices to go parabolic. It’s very obvious why people would much rather have a generator and some Jerry cans for a few hundred bucks than a solar + battery setup that costs more than their car.
      - happyraul 2y ago
        The solar and batteries have much lower emissions, and can be used as all times (not just during power outages) to lower the cost of electricity. Anyway it doesn't have to be generator or solar + batteries... Why not both? Have the solar, reduce emissions and utility bills. Have the generator as a backup if power is out and batteries are empty.
        jmb99 2y ago
        That's what I'm currently in the planning phases for. Break-even is still the better part of a decade on parts alone, unless you get very creative (for instance, where I live, I can choose to have a special time-of-use electrical billing program where overnight electricity is ~60% cheaper than usual; you can make use of this to charge batteries overnight, rely on solar when it's sunny, and batteries during the more expensive times-of-use). The overall point though, is that solar and/or batteries are not a viable alternative for emergency backup power, nor will they be "within the next few years." Within the next few decades, maybe.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    If I fully decked my roof out I can generate a good 20kWp I'm assuming OP isn't actually serving out of home (starlink won't help with it's CG-Nat), so it's not like they're running 5kW of servers. 10kWh a day seems perfectly reasonable amount to keep going. Given just running a generator it going to eat 20 litres a day on lowest load, over 3 weeks that's 400 litres you'd need to store. With a battery setup even if you had to charge from a generator you'd be able to run it more efficiently for a shorter period. So having spend 10 minutes I reckon the answer is "yes, OP should certainly get a solar/battery system set up"
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      That's crazy. There are huge differences is costs and use cases.A generator is $500, and mine can run for 24hrs on 5 gallons of gas. A 5kw solar system is about $25k to 35k in my area before batteries.
      - grecy 2y ago
        > A 5kW solar system is about $25k to 35k in my area before batteries. Do you live on the moon? Earlier this year I installed a 7.8kW system in Canada for $13k CAD all in, inc the inverter and labor. (Then I got a $5k subsidy to bring it to $8k out of pocket.) It’s cheaper now, panel prices fall every month.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        California - the moon might be cheaper. The whole system here is corrupt due to regulatory capture. There are high permitting costs, high cost hardware requirements, and high cost of labor. The state requires a 4 years of training to become a solar installer, so there is little competition. Also, with every new house required by law to have solar, installers know they have a captive market and are milking it for all it is worth. I dont think we have yet seen the cost impact of the new Tariffs on Chinese solar panels and batteries, so it will keep going up.
        2y ago

by RowanH 2y ago

fennecfoxy 2y ago

As a Kiwi I wouldn't say we're prone to natural disasters per se. Certainly not on a yearly basis. Though that said, Mt. Taranaki is meant to do the big boom soonish. That'll be interesting.

rafaelmn 2y ago

Wondering if solar/batteries would do the same thing as a generator but cleaner and also useful in general ? Because I've thought about solving a similar scenario but just assumed solar/batteries would be the play here.

parl_match 2y ago
If you spent 10 minutes running the numbers, you'd probably answer your question pretty handily.
- h0l0cube 2y ago
  Depends on the price of batteries, which are rapidly declining. Within the next few years the numbers will change in favor of batteries. Though it also depends on the load and having enough space/sunlight for the solar array
  - parl_match 2y ago
    My quick math came up short on batteries. But as you say, it's worth running those numbers every year. I can't imagine I'll be sitting here in 2030 saying "batteries aren't there yet".
    - h0l0cube 2y ago
      > I can't imagine I'll be sitting here in 2030 saying "batteries aren't there yet". Or if you're looking now at sodium ion. It's only just hitting the consumer market, but it's already cheap enough for energy storage at the scale GP is talking about. Might take a few years for cell quality, inverter, and charging technology to improve, but by 2030 it will be so dirt cheap to the point that it would be economically sensible for any household.
      - parl_match 2y ago
        Last year, when I did the math, batteries still had a 15 year payoff time. I'm not going to be in this house in 15 years. If the state subsidized it more (it is kind of a public good imo), or I could easily roll it into house value, I'd do it. I'm trying to move to a nicer house. When I do that, I'll almost certainly just go for it.
        h0l0cube 2y ago
        I'm not sure whether you read my comment, but I was specifically talking about sodium ion which are absurdly cheap even before efficiencies of scale enter the equation. I don't think many are doing the math on that because it's only just become available on Alibaba. BMSes and chargers don't really exist for it yet, but there are whole battery packs for sale.
        parl_match 2y ago
        No, I read your comment. I was just thinking about 2030. Also, no offense, but I'm not trusting a brand new energy storage technology bolted to the wall of my house. I'll businesses trial it out first for a few years.
  - jmb99 2y ago
    I can buy a used diesel/propane/gas/pick your fuel generator today for a few hundred bucks that could power most of the essentials in my house. I bought a brand new one during an extended power outage due to storms last year for $500 CAD. That and 80L of gas (~$120 CAD) can run my sump pumps, fridge, freezer, the electronic side of my furnace, my homelab server rack (including 6 PoE access points), my workstation, and key lighting - for 5 days. If I cut that back to essentials, closer to 3 weeks. That’s roughly 200kWh for $120, plus $500 up front. Currently, the absolute cheapest I can find lithium batteries (I am planning a solar+grid load-balancing setup) is about $160CAD/kwh. To prepare for the worst case (i.e. minimal solar generation during and following the storm - say, middle of winter/happens to be cloudy/panels are damaged/etc) I’d need to spend over $30,000 in batteries alone to have the same capacity as $120 of gas. Not to mention the sheer amount of space that would take. And the cost of solar panels (10kW actual generation capacity, minimum, to keep essentials running), at roughly $1/W in Canada, adds another $10,000 to that estimate. And that’s not including the cost of installation, which based on what I’ve heard, probably adds another $10-20k. While there are some interesting advances being made, I do not believe that battery capacity costs will decrease by 3-4 orders of magnitude “within the next few years,” unless you anticipate gasoline/diesel/etc prices to go parabolic. It’s very obvious why people would much rather have a generator and some Jerry cans for a few hundred bucks than a solar + battery setup that costs more than their car.
    - happyraul 2y ago
      The solar and batteries have much lower emissions, and can be used as all times (not just during power outages) to lower the cost of electricity. Anyway it doesn't have to be generator or solar + batteries... Why not both? Have the solar, reduce emissions and utility bills. Have the generator as a backup if power is out and batteries are empty.
      - jmb99 2y ago
        That's what I'm currently in the planning phases for. Break-even is still the better part of a decade on parts alone, unless you get very creative (for instance, where I live, I can choose to have a special time-of-use electrical billing program where overnight electricity is ~60% cheaper than usual; you can make use of this to charge batteries overnight, rely on solar when it's sunny, and batteries during the more expensive times-of-use). The overall point though, is that solar and/or batteries are not a viable alternative for emergency backup power, nor will they be "within the next few years." Within the next few decades, maybe.
- ta1243 2y ago
  If I fully decked my roof out I can generate a good 20kWp I'm assuming OP isn't actually serving out of home (starlink won't help with it's CG-Nat), so it's not like they're running 5kW of servers. 10kWh a day seems perfectly reasonable amount to keep going. Given just running a generator it going to eat 20 litres a day on lowest load, over 3 weeks that's 400 litres you'd need to store. With a battery setup even if you had to charge from a generator you'd be able to run it more efficiently for a shorter period. So having spend 10 minutes I reckon the answer is "yes, OP should certainly get a solar/battery system set up"
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    That's crazy. There are huge differences is costs and use cases.A generator is $500, and mine can run for 24hrs on 5 gallons of gas. A 5kw solar system is about $25k to 35k in my area before batteries.
    - grecy 2y ago
      > A 5kW solar system is about $25k to 35k in my area before batteries. Do you live on the moon? Earlier this year I installed a 7.8kW system in Canada for $13k CAD all in, inc the inverter and labor. (Then I got a $5k subsidy to bring it to $8k out of pocket.) It’s cheaper now, panel prices fall every month.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        California - the moon might be cheaper. The whole system here is corrupt due to regulatory capture. There are high permitting costs, high cost hardware requirements, and high cost of labor. The state requires a 4 years of training to become a solar installer, so there is little competition. Also, with every new house required by law to have solar, installers know they have a captive market and are milking it for all it is worth. I dont think we have yet seen the cost impact of the new Tariffs on Chinese solar panels and batteries, so it will keep going up.
        2y ago