5 ms·

Probably not. In 1997 they were happy to court the $$ associated with opening up this huge new market of 1b+ "middle class" consumers. Id argue they still are

Probably not. In 1997 they were happy to court the $$ associated with opening up this huge new market of 1b+ "middle class" consumers. Id argue they still aren't sufficiently butthurt about it. The UK has sufficient grounds to reclaim HK since china has very much failed to uphold its agreement to keep hong kong democratic for at least 50 years. I guess that's why the CPC goes on gaslighting rants about "whole process democracy" like Jesus CPC. You just had to wait 20 years, what the hell is the rush?

shortrounddev2 2y ago
I think China is increasingly driven by the ego of Xi Jinping and not the internal machinations of party politics.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  He is 71 and getting older. A lot of crazy things look more reasonable when you've had absolute power for a decade and aren't overly concerned about consequences in 20 years.
  - vkou 2y ago
    A lot of crazy things look more reasonable when you realize that your metric for 'crazy' and 'not crazy' is less about gauging the mental state of the person making those decisions, and more about how much/little they upset Western interests.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Invading sovereign nations is pretty crazy. (Said to castigate both western and non-western countries) Sometimes the standards of human decency are global.
      - dmz73 2y ago
        If you look at the history of the last 2000+ years in Europe and Asia, invading sovereign nations (or whatever you want to call the equivalent over that period) is pretty much the norm...so not crazy. Is it violating the standard of human decency if that seems to be the norm? Maybe we humans are not as decent as we would like to thing we are.
      - vkou 2y ago
        We never call a Western or west-aligned politician who is doing it 'crazy'. We have a lot of other negative terms for it, but for a very recent example, nobody in the press (even the press hostile to them) doubted Dubya's or Tony Blair's mental state in 2003. Somebody opposed to us doing it, is, of course, mentally ill. There's no other explanation for it!
  - dangus 2y ago
    I think it's a mistake to give in to the temptation to jump to the conclusion that China is a tunnel-vision cult of personality everything-the-crazy-dictator-wants-he-gets government. The Chinese government under Xi has a well-established track record of long-term planning that has done nothing but elevated China's status and leverage in the world. It really couldn't be further from (e.g.) Putin's style of governance.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Sidelining potential political competitors and/or forcing them out of the public sphere doesn't inspire confidence in Xi's ability to resist using power conveniently. > The Chinese government under Xi has a well-established track record of long-term planning that has done nothing but elevated China's status and leverage in the world. Some of its neighbors in the South China Sea would beg to differ. E.g. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V80MGYrWWaM&t=80s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V80MGYrWWaM&t=80s
      - dangus 2y ago
        I’m confused at what your video is supposed to disprove about what I said. China rammed into a Philippine ship knowing they would face zero consequences. Did they face any consequences? China’s neighbors can hem and haw all they want. China is the superpower in the Eastern Hemisphere.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        Your use of "status" sounded like "people like them." If you were intending it in the sense of "people fear them," then agreed.
        dangus 2y ago
        By status I mean geopolitical power and leverage, not fear or admiration.
qingcharles 2y ago
Even if they were legally entitled to reclaim it under law, I don't see the British re-invading China at this point.
beaglessss 2y ago
[dead]
rich_sasha 2y ago
One of the reasons UK didn't contest it in 1997 was that it couldn't. UK "owned" Hong Kong island, which is a tiny bit of territory. Most of what is called Hong Kong was actually leased from China for a definite term, and the lease was coming to an end, fair and square. Hong Kong island was handed over as part of the package. Hong Kong island is, I would imagine, in no way sustainable as a standalone territory, if China were to be hostile.
- kmonsen 2y ago
  China threatened to cut off water. UK did not have any meaningful way of keeping HK without strong US support.
epanchin 2y ago
Based on the UKs failure to retake HK despite the broken agreement, how long do you think that base will be there? They could take it back whenever they wanted and we’d do nothing.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > UKs failure to retake HK despite the broken agreement I don’t think the UK law works that way. There may be compensation or other consequences, but it’s unlikely the whole agreement is null and void. Real life example: I rented a house in UK, paying monthly rent. The heating system and hot water broke down in winter, and it took them three months to fix. It was clear breach of contract, landlord is responsible for the heating system and must fix withing 48 hours. I was not allowed to break up the contract and leave, and I even went to court over it - my compensation was really pathetic.
dangus 2y ago
In what universe does the UK have grounds to have anything to do with governing a region 6000 miles away from home that it seized during the Opium War? I would love for China to have democracy, but Great Britain really doesn't have any moral high ground on the issue nor any business having anything to do with the government there. If you think they aren't sufficiently butthurt about it, I'd counter that by saying "what can they realistically do about it?" The answer is "absolutely nothing." You want them to invade or something? They can write a nastygram or something but any of the promises involved with the transfer really mean nothing. An analogy would be asking the next owner of your car to not play any Britney Spears on the radio. Good luck enforcing that.
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  Shouldn't people of Hong Kong decide that? https://theworld.org/stories/2016/08/30/there-s-movement-turn-hong-kong-back-british-colony https://theworld.org/stories/2016/08/30/there-s-movement-tur...
  - dangus 2y ago
    Should the people of North Dakota be able to take a vote and decide to become a Chinese province? I mean, I completely empathize with their situation, but the fact of the matter is that the UK has even less of a claim to governance over the territory than China does. It’s physically connected to mainland China with no other countries or territories around.
    - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
      > Should the people of North Dakota be able to take a vote and decide to become a Chinese province? They have the moral right to do so. But the ground reality is that many Chinese are becoming North Dakotans (Americans). https://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=af39d656-e887-4f0a-80a0-697a5a7d1178 https://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?g... And many Hong Kongers are becoming British: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/07/hong-kong-britain-china-empire/670961/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/07/ho...
Barrin92 2y ago
>china has very much failed to uphold its agreement to keep hong kong democratic That would be a curious failure indeed given that Hong Kong wasn't democratic under the British to begin with. It was a crown colony ruled by an appointed governor. The Brits of course never had any legitimate claim to an island they took after a war whose objective was to force opium into China. If they still have dreams of empire I'm sure China would be delighted to see them try though and see how it goes this time.

shortrounddev2 2y ago

I think China is increasingly driven by the ego of Xi Jinping and not the internal machinations of party politics.

ethbr1 2y ago
He is 71 and getting older. A lot of crazy things look more reasonable when you've had absolute power for a decade and aren't overly concerned about consequences in 20 years.
- vkou 2y ago
  A lot of crazy things look more reasonable when you realize that your metric for 'crazy' and 'not crazy' is less about gauging the mental state of the person making those decisions, and more about how much/little they upset Western interests.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Invading sovereign nations is pretty crazy. (Said to castigate both western and non-western countries) Sometimes the standards of human decency are global.
    - dmz73 2y ago
      If you look at the history of the last 2000+ years in Europe and Asia, invading sovereign nations (or whatever you want to call the equivalent over that period) is pretty much the norm...so not crazy. Is it violating the standard of human decency if that seems to be the norm? Maybe we humans are not as decent as we would like to thing we are.
    - vkou 2y ago
      We never call a Western or west-aligned politician who is doing it 'crazy'. We have a lot of other negative terms for it, but for a very recent example, nobody in the press (even the press hostile to them) doubted Dubya's or Tony Blair's mental state in 2003. Somebody opposed to us doing it, is, of course, mentally ill. There's no other explanation for it!
- dangus 2y ago
  I think it's a mistake to give in to the temptation to jump to the conclusion that China is a tunnel-vision cult of personality everything-the-crazy-dictator-wants-he-gets government. The Chinese government under Xi has a well-established track record of long-term planning that has done nothing but elevated China's status and leverage in the world. It really couldn't be further from (e.g.) Putin's style of governance.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Sidelining potential political competitors and/or forcing them out of the public sphere doesn't inspire confidence in Xi's ability to resist using power conveniently. > The Chinese government under Xi has a well-established track record of long-term planning that has done nothing but elevated China's status and leverage in the world. Some of its neighbors in the South China Sea would beg to differ. E.g. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V80MGYrWWaM&t=80s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V80MGYrWWaM&t=80s
    - dangus 2y ago
      I’m confused at what your video is supposed to disprove about what I said. China rammed into a Philippine ship knowing they would face zero consequences. Did they face any consequences? China’s neighbors can hem and haw all they want. China is the superpower in the Eastern Hemisphere.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        Your use of "status" sounded like "people like them." If you were intending it in the sense of "people fear them," then agreed.
        dangus 2y ago
        By status I mean geopolitical power and leverage, not fear or admiration.

qingcharles 2y ago

Even if they were legally entitled to reclaim it under law, I don't see the British re-invading China at this point.

beaglessss 2y ago

[dead]

rich_sasha 2y ago

One of the reasons UK didn't contest it in 1997 was that it couldn't. UK "owned" Hong Kong island, which is a tiny bit of territory. Most of what is called Hong Kong was actually leased from China for a definite term, and the lease was coming to an end, fair and square. Hong Kong island was handed over as part of the package. Hong Kong island is, I would imagine, in no way sustainable as a standalone territory, if China were to be hostile.

kmonsen 2y ago
China threatened to cut off water. UK did not have any meaningful way of keeping HK without strong US support.

epanchin 2y ago

Based on the UKs failure to retake HK despite the broken agreement, how long do you think that base will be there? They could take it back whenever they wanted and we’d do nothing.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> UKs failure to retake HK despite the broken agreement I don’t think the UK law works that way. There may be compensation or other consequences, but it’s unlikely the whole agreement is null and void. Real life example: I rented a house in UK, paying monthly rent. The heating system and hot water broke down in winter, and it took them three months to fix. It was clear breach of contract, landlord is responsible for the heating system and must fix withing 48 hours. I was not allowed to break up the contract and leave, and I even went to court over it - my compensation was really pathetic.

dangus 2y ago

In what universe does the UK have grounds to have anything to do with governing a region 6000 miles away from home that it seized during the Opium War? I would love for China to have democracy, but Great Britain really doesn't have any moral high ground on the issue nor any business having anything to do with the government there. If you think they aren't sufficiently butthurt about it, I'd counter that by saying "what can they realistically do about it?" The answer is "absolutely nothing." You want them to invade or something? They can write a nastygram or something but any of the promises involved with the transfer really mean nothing. An analogy would be asking the next owner of your car to not play any Britney Spears on the radio. Good luck enforcing that.

cscurmudgeon 2y ago
Shouldn't people of Hong Kong decide that? https://theworld.org/stories/2016/08/30/there-s-movement-turn-hong-kong-back-british-colony https://theworld.org/stories/2016/08/30/there-s-movement-tur...
- dangus 2y ago
  Should the people of North Dakota be able to take a vote and decide to become a Chinese province? I mean, I completely empathize with their situation, but the fact of the matter is that the UK has even less of a claim to governance over the territory than China does. It’s physically connected to mainland China with no other countries or territories around.
  - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
    > Should the people of North Dakota be able to take a vote and decide to become a Chinese province? They have the moral right to do so. But the ground reality is that many Chinese are becoming North Dakotans (Americans). https://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=af39d656-e887-4f0a-80a0-697a5a7d1178 https://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?g... And many Hong Kongers are becoming British: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/07/hong-kong-britain-china-empire/670961/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/07/ho...

Barrin92 2y ago

>china has very much failed to uphold its agreement to keep hong kong democratic That would be a curious failure indeed given that Hong Kong wasn't democratic under the British to begin with. It was a crown colony ruled by an appointed governor. The Brits of course never had any legitimate claim to an island they took after a war whose objective was to force opium into China. If they still have dreams of empire I'm sure China would be delighted to see them try though and see how it goes this time.